News article on main line to the south west

[whole diary]

[Kernow Otter]

Interesting addition to the debate on the longer term future of the mainline to the south west.

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/major-rethink-inland-rail-links-Westcountry/story-18232711-detail/story.html#axzz2M1pfVyhb

[ChrisB]

If money grew on trees....great ideas!

[paul7575]

But it argues that plans to bring the new High Speed Two (HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))) route to Bristol are "less promising" for the southern part of the greater South West region.

Huh?   

Er... are they confusing HS2 with IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)?

Paul

[TonyK]

Huh?   

Er... are they confusing HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) with IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)?

Paul

Had me puzzled, too. I haven't ruled out the possibility that This is Cornwall has confused HS2 with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).

There is a comment to the story:

by skareggae72

 ^There is already an inland route of the troublesome Teignmouth/Dawlish section,which leaves Newton Abbot just East of the station/40% of this line is still in use to Heathfield oil terminal,although the remainder of the line to Exeter has been covered by a road,but to bring this back would surely not be too difficult.
As for the electrification of the Teignmouth/Dawlish sea wall section,i can only see this as being troublesome due to limited tunnel height,rusting high power lines due to salt spray,and the danger of waves hitting the overhead high power cables with a busy footpath only feet away.^

Having sat in a train at a signal set at red by a wet track circuit, watching the spray going over the train as the poor old driver prepares to get out to phone the signalman, I understand the point about mixing electricity with sea water. What do we think of the Heathfield idea? Any new route will cost hundreds of millions, but keeping the coastal route running will be expensive in the long term. Not, I hasten to add, that I want to see that shut, but I would like an alternative linking other towns currently not on a railway, as well as for bad weather diversions. Hundreds of millions is being spent on Reading station, thousands of millions on Crossrail. Do Devon and Cornwall have a case for a piece of the action?

[thetrout]

To be fair to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and Network Rail... I don't think the weather and flooding was as bad in the days of Brunel as it is today. Plus there are significantly more trains of various speeds running around. So the way I see it, problems are inevitable because weather conditions have "evolved" and worsened. we've had regular flooding problems once or twice a year. But the Brunel railway hasn't moved. It's still where it was all those years ago. I personally think Brunel would be very proud that his railway is still going. Especially the Dawlish sea wall ;-)

However, with all that said. I do think that resilience planned without pointing fingers in SOME cases could have been better...

[quakers yard]

Been stuck at red at the sea wall myself  too! 
Would a way through Tavistock be a more cost-effective alternative  for Plymouth  and Cornwall ?

[The Grecian]

As I've said before, the Heathfield route was a single track branch line route with so little local traffic potential it closed in 1958, long before Beeching. Plus the half mile long Perridge tunnel has collapsed. Reopening it as part of a main line route? It's a total non-starter.

The idea of an alternate inland route from Exeter to Newton Abbot might have potential. Although any attempt to significantly reduce journey times via this route wouldn't work on its own. The 20 mile Exeter-Newton Abbot can be done in 18 minutes by Voyager and 20 by HST^▸ (High Speed Train). The 32 mile NAbbot Plymouth section takes a minimum 36 minutes by Voyager, a HST at least 40 minutes. Unless that section of route was also significantly upgraded, journey times will never be much below an hour at best.

The Tavistock route is never going to be the primary route for dempgraphic reasons. It passes through Crediton, Okehampton and Tavistock, three small-ish market towns, which aren't really railheads for any other towns (Okehampton potentially Bude and Holsworthy at a push I suppose). The Dawlish route serves the larger town of Newton Abbot which also acts as a railhead for the Torbay area in conjunction with Totnes, which also acts as a railhead for the affluent South Hams. In addition you've got towns at Dawlish, Teignmouth and Ivybridge which are cumulatively larger than the three on the old LSWR^▸ (London South Western Railway) route.

The Tavistock route could complement the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) route and be useful for diversions but it'll never become the primary route to Cornwall.

[Umberleigh]

Some good points made, Grecian (and a good win yesterday ).

Had to drive down to Truro a couple of times last week, joining the A30 at Whiddon Down. If, and I mean IF, a new higher speed line were to be down to Cornwall, then surely this would be the route. Unlike the south coast of Devon and Cornwall, it's rural all the way, with long shallow gradients and no need to knock down numerous properties.

Furthermore, there is the potential for a junction at Okehampton/Meldon, the A30 bisects the Newquay line (Park and Ride/junction, and could easily rejoin the main line into Truro. Bodmin Moor would rightly be an issue, but it's not actually that big, unlike Dartmoor, and could be circumvented or even tunnelled under.

So, Paddington to Exeter is fast, even quicker if electrified - just need to fix Cowley. Reverse at St Davids (two minutes for a modern train), and then forwards on the upgraded, redoubled Okehampton line. Nice former main line with potential for 100mph running, if the two level crossings are removed (only serve minor roads). Also plenty of space on the level between Crediton and Newton St C. to install running loops for the local services.

Join the new line either before Okehampton, or between there and Meldon, where we meet the A30 - and avoid Meldon viaduct. Bang - 125mph all the way to Newquay Parkway/Junction and Truro alongside the A30/A39, with Truro the new hub for local services to St Austell, Falmouth, St Ives etc. This gives a line speed of 100 - 125 mph from London to Truro, knocking off, what, ninety minutes? Two hours for a non-stop service?

The issue would remain as to how best serve Plymouth (I'm assuming the former mainline would remain open for local services, freight, sleeper, diversions etc and can't see why not). Plymouth to Okehampton via Tavistock is of course former main line, could be easily redoubled, and IF it was electrified for the gradient, easily 100mph running. Bypassing Tavistock would be costly and controversial, however. But with the necessary funds, it could be done. Otherwise, electrify the existing mainline and build that tunnel through the Haldon Hills, then couple to the Cornwall train at Exeter (cost savings), and onwards to London.

And then I woke up...

[Kernow Otter]

I would even sacrifice our remaining direct Lostwithiel to London services for that vision of the future.....

[Umberleigh]

I would even sacrifice our remaining direct Lostwithiel to London services for that vision of the future.....

Thanks!

Forgot to mention the huge time savings for Cross-Country services, too.

[swrural]

I foresee the need for all of it eventually.  The Plymouth Branch (as it would become) from Okehampton to Plymouth following the old route (5 houses and a council office to demolish) *and* your Cornwall route, Grecian.  Strategically, the Plymouth route via Okehampton is needed now to avoid the issues arising from coastal threats and to meet future demand.  Torbay needs the Haldon Hill tunnel.  Having said that, it must be remembered that both GW^▸ (Great Western) and LSWR^▸ (London South Western Railway) mainlines are also threatened by the Exe / Culm and  Axe respectively, so if you can't get to Exeter from the east by rail at all, (as recently happened), it becomes academic about how you get from Exeter to Plymouth, Torbay and Cornwall, except for travel between those counties!

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

The main problem with all these ideas is that like all the other British extremities, there are not the millions of local residents that could make the enormous investment any where near a commercial proposition. It has to be remmebered that public transport in this country is not considered by the authorities to be a public service as it was in the days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) but a privatised operation whose primary objective is to make money for shareholders of the private enterprises. Any form of public service is just a by product of trying to make a maximum profit. Perhaps I am too much of a cynic.

[swrural]

No Andrew, not a cynic, just dealing with the current attitudes in political circles realistically.  But I assumed that Grecian was looking ahead.  If the traffic is not sufficient, why then are dualling road schemes still being proposed (and authorised    )?

Those of us who think differently are looking forward to the day when tufts of grass start to grow between the cracks in the A38.  It will come and it is sensible to consider the options now.

In fairness 'rail is OK' in the Coalition government at present, so the suggested schemes are growing on optimistim. 

[Network SouthEast]

I'm sure we'll see electrification on the line through Dawlish at some point.

There are a few areas that are electrified already (or are going to be) that present challenging issues for civil engineers, but they can be overcome with creative ideas.

Chat Moss - deep steel piles as foundations for the stanchions
Severn Tunnel- solid overhead rail

Chalkwell (OHLE) and Ryde Pier (CRE^» (Crewe - next trains)) to name a couple of locations are on/next to the sea and seem to be able to cope with what the sea throws at it.

I don't profess to know what the answer for Dawlish is, but I do think that when the line to Penzance is electrified Dawlish won't be a deal breaker!

[TonyK]

One day in the distant future, all public and most private transport will be electric. It makes sense to acknowledge this inescapable fact now, and make as much passive provision as possible in planning and engineering works, or at least do nothing to make it more difficult. In the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), we are very good at doing the cheap option first, then doing it again properly.

For my money, the prime source of electricity will be nuclear, possibly using Thorium rather than Uranium or Plutonium. One of the major research facilities is in India. They are developing their space programme, possible high-speed railway, and urban metro systems, all whilst receiving aid from the UK.