Fares on South West Trains to London

[whole diary]

[swrural]

Services to London are too slow. It makes both time and money sense to drive to Havant or Eastleigh and commute from there.

I agree.  You get a choice of either:
a. A direct Southern service, via. Horsham
b. A direct South West Trains service, via. Eastleigh and Basingstoke
c. Taking a service to Havant and changing for a South West Trains service via Guildford

Option b is the fastest, but at 1hr 40mins minimum, it is often faster and more comfortable to drive especially if your destination is not in Central London.

As for fares, ^51.80 for an anytime day return or ^57.20 for an anytime return is also more expensive than driving.  Driving costs about half that, although parking in London is extra.

I must admit I thought 'surely not' when i read this and so I looked up AXM to WAT same fare and would have fallen over had I not already been sitting.  ^65.70 if you please!  Indeed I noted that it's cheaper to book singles.  That was for next week. So I tried May and the cost was still the same for off peak return (although they are valid in the peak anyway!) and only ^18 for singles.  Also, an ordinary return (within one month) was only 60p extra!  In fact you could go 1st class singles for about the same.

What *is* going on?  A few years or so ago I could go from AXM to WAT day return for little more than half.

An ordinary passenger who did not go online would not realise about the singles.  Would a b.o. clerk tell him?

Clearly day trippers (to London anyway) are no longer required by SWT^▸ (South West Trains).

[JayMac]

The singles are Advance Purchase and can only be bought up to 1800 the day before travel. They tie you to booked trains only. That inflexibility is reflected in the cost.

If I want to travel AXM-WAT this coming Monday, arriving after 1000 and departing between 1700-1900, the cheapest option is that Off Peak Day Return at ^65.70. There are no cheaper singles available.

Further ahead, then yes, Advance Purchase fares are available and the day trip can be done for ^36.00, but I can't see availability of the ^18 APs in the morning peak (ie arriving Waterloo before 1000). Remember, Advance Purchase fares are quota controlled and subject to yield management. The train company can offer as many or as few as they wish, or none at all, and at whatever price point they wish.

Whatever is available, a booking office clerk will offer the cheapest option for your travel needs. However if you ask for an Off Peak Day Return, that is what you will be sold. Ahead of time then said clerk should look for Advance Purchase availability.

The AXM-WAT Off Peak Day Return fare can however be beaten by purchasing split tickets. I've managed to get it down to ^56.50 allowing arrival at Waterloo at 1019 and returning anytime the same day.

[swrural]

As always BNM, many thanks, coo what a swizz!  I suppose if one envisages chancing the rail system several times a year, as I do, one will have a one third reduction with a railcard (mine is OAP).  It is still dear from both Wareham and AXM for instance compared with a car (12 litres each way from Fareham).  If I was a thrifty occasional visitor to the Smoke, as Brucey points out, with the car, it's no contest, especially if there is more than one occupant  -  save for the parking.  Now on that one, a search with GE and SV would be able perhaps to turn up a Northern line destination where one could park in a side street for nothing.  It depends where you are ending up in London, so I am assuming a central destination.  It is certainly what I do at AXM as I am not paying SWT^▸ (South West Trains) extortionate parking fees under any circumstances.

[JayMac]

It wasn't immediately apparent to me that GE and SV is Google Earth and Street View, I had to think a bit and look at the context. They're certainly not widely used abbreviations. The most popular hit for GE in Google is General Electric and for SV it's the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) country code for El Salvador!

Others may not know the abbreviation and context and casual visitors may be confused. When using acronyms and abbreviations it's best to use the full name once in a post.

I'm sometimes guilty myself of not using the full term - I quickly edited this post to include the full name for ISO.

[inspector_blakey]

As always BNM, many thanks, coo what a swizz!

I think we live on different planets. That fare seems eminently reasonable to me for a return journey of almost 150 miles each way, travelling up to London on trains that are already full even though they arrive towards the end of the morning peak.

[JayMac]

The pence per mile for the Axminster-Waterloo Off Peak Day Return comes in at 21.9p for the 300 mile round trip. Petrol costs for the same journey using a mid-range, mid mileage car would be around 16 pence per mile. So on petrol costs alone the car wins. A smaller car and higher mileage and the petrol cost comes down to around 13.5 pence per mile. Diesel car would be around 15.5p in the mid-range.

However, fuel alone isn't the only cost in running a car. Taking all the other costs into account the AA estimate that the cost of running a mid-range, mid mileage petrol car is 56.5 pence per mile.

So, based on the AXM-WAT Off Peak Day Return, two people can take the train for less than the running cost of a mid-range, mid-mileage car.

If you have a small petrol car and do a high mileage then the total running costs come in at around 31 pence per mile. Still more expensive if travelling alone, but when there's two of you the car might just be cheaper.

Remember though, there is no cheaper Advance Purchase for petrol/diesel. There are no discounts for the majority of a car's running costs. If you are an OAP, 16-25, travelling with Family & Friends you don't get 1/3 off the running costs of your car.

Rail travel is getting more expensive, it's government policy to increase the farebox take and reduce the subsidy. But it still compares well with running a car. For many though the car is the only choice, if they are not served well by rail for example. But where's there's a choice remember to look at all the costs and not just compare the train ticket price with the amount of petrol/diesel you will use.

[swrural]

As always BNM, many thanks, coo what a swizz!

I think we live on different planets. That fare seems eminently reasonable to me for a return journey of almost 150 miles each way, travelling up to London on trains that are already full even though they arrive towards the end of the morning peak.

Value for money is a subjective view so your view is as valid as mine, IB.  BNM has dealt with many points but the intriguing one for me is whether one can park for nothing near a south London station, just around the corner, so to speak.  How far 'in' one could achieve that would be a good quiz item for petrol heads.  Not many of those here, I fear.

Apologies for my abbreviations but i have used them before and did ask for them to be added.

I see they haven't been, so may I ask mods to provide an acceptable 'abb' for Google Earth and Street View please?

Finally, I only buy fully written-down motor vehicles (1994 Mercedes 260E for ^500, 1996 Peugeot 106D for ^100 which I have had for at least 10 years each) so our fixed costs for motoring are about ^15 per week each for maintaining, insurance and road tax.  In any case,  pro-rail (pro any public transport) people always make the error of lumping fixed costs in with variable.  Once you have a car that's it.  The only way to avoid those costs is not to have a car; impossible where I live with one bus per week and miles to the nearest hourly bus service.   Interesting that our Wareham colleague mentions all the alternative rail routes that were the subject of fixed battles originally between the warring companies!    I did not realise all the routes were still actively promoted, even now.   

[JayMac]

Comparisons are always difficult and statistics can be skewed in favour of either side of a debate. So I agree that when looking at your individual circumstances the figures may not be a true reflection of your actual pence per mile costs.

As regards fixed costs, they are included in your rail fare, so should they not also be included for the car? I agree that in some respects the AA running costs tables are not necessarily a true reflection when compared to an individual, but they are the best way of looking at the average whenever anyone brings up the "I could do the journey for less in the car" argument.

I'm not a driver, so by default I'm probably pro-rail. Rail travel is often expensive. Car ownership is often expensive. Sometimes the car wins, sometimes the train wins.

[Brucey]

I suppose costs like insurance and road tax are a case of "I'm paying for them anyway just for owning a car", whereas fixed rail costs aren't going to be incurred.  Perhaps three comparisons should be made: car including fixed costs, car excluding fixed costs and rail.

As for swrural's query of parking in London, I often use Hayes & Harlington station car park, which is just off the M4.  ^3.20 per day if you buy from APCOA^▸ (Car parking company used at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - controlled stations in the area) or the APCOA owned parking meter, ^2 per day if you buy from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (yes I know, don't ask )  Gets busy early in the morning though, but a short and cheap journey into Central London (or, in my case, Ealing Broadway for the Central Line for White City).

Alternatively, Westfield in Shepherd's Bush / White City charge ^5 for a whole day parking on a weekday.

I'm also lucky to be able to park for free at weekends in a certain car park in South Kensington, which I have taken advantage of several times.

[thetrout]

The singles are Advance Purchase and can only be bought up to 1800 the day before travel. They tie you to booked trains only. That inflexibility is reflected in the cost.

Sorry BNM, That is not entirely accurate...

South West Trains allow Advance Purchase booking until 23:59:59 the day before travel.

Couple of weekends back, I booked on Sunday at 23:27 a London Waterloo - Frome First Class Advance Single for travel the following day (Monday) on the 21:20 service changing at Salisbury and Westbury. I paid ^11.90 for the privilege (Admittedly With Railcard)

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it), Virgin and CrossCountry also allow booking up to 23:59:59, whereas FGW^▸ (First Great Western) the booking deadline is up to 17:59:59 for travel the next day.

[Southern Stag]

Cross Country actually allow advance purchase tickets to be bought up to 10 minutes before departure, but they always seem to be more expensive than walk up fares.

[thetrout]

Cross Country actually allow advance purchase tickets to be bought up to 10 minutes before departure, but they always seem to be more expensive than walk up fares.

I think you mean 10 minute reservations?! which aren't Advance tickets, just a very last minute seat reservation for walk up ticket holders.

As the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) website states the booking deadline is 23:59 for Standard Advance Fares and 18:00 for First Advance Fares...

[swrural]

When I tried it SWT^▸ (South West Trains) only say I can't if it's less than 2 hours away.  What's an 'advance' ticket in that case?

[inspector_blakey]

The two hours is, I think, something different. If you buy *any* sort of ticket online to collect from a machine at the station (which could be exactly the same as the walk-up ticket you could have bought from the ticket office for immediate travel, if you wanted to purchase it online), there is a nominal two-hour delay before that ticket is in the system and ready to collect from the machine at the station.

Whether the two-hour delay is real or not I don't know, as I've never tested the system; my guess would be that the ticket should be available more or less immediately but obviously that's not the kind of thing you want to try in case it goes wrong and you miss your train. For this reason websites will generally not let you book *any* kind of ticket within two hours of your scheduled departure, which I think is what you're referring to above.

All ticket types can be bought in advance of travel if you chose to do so. However, Advance tickets are tickets that *must* be bought in advance, have their availability controlled by a quota and tie you to a specific train on which they are valid. Cut-offs for purchasing Advance tickets are the night before travel, some companies at 1800 and some at midnight. As far as I know, these also correspond to the cut-off time by which you must make a reservation to travel the following day, which makes sense as Advance tickets come with a compulsory reservation. This is not always a reserved seat, for the simple reason that some companies like SWT^▸ (South West Trains) offer Advance tickets but don't offer seat reservations on their services, but you will always receive a reservation coupon additional to the travel ticket which specifies the train on which you must travel. This has to be shown together with the Advance ticket for he ticket to be valid.

[Southern Stag]

Cross Country actually allow advance purchase tickets to be bought up to 10 minutes before departure, but they always seem to be more expensive than walk up fares.

I think you mean 10 minute reservations?! which aren't Advance tickets, just a very last minute seat reservation for walk up ticket holders.

As the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) website states the booking deadline is 23:59 for Standard Advance Fares and 18:00 for First Advance Fares...

No, XC do offer 10 minute AP as well now. I've just looked now and I can buy an ^86.10 FC^‡(resolve) Advance Single from Taunton to Birmingham for the 12:51 departure, which does offer a saving compared to the First Anytime Single.