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Author Topic: Bus discrimination case  (Read 50690 times)
trainer
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« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2014, 22:27:04 »

Discus.

Ouch!  Cheesy
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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2014, 22:28:50 »


Discus.



I was better at shot putt myself.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2014, 10:11:01 »


...droit de seigneur...


Can I refer you to the answer given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram?
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didcotdean
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« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2014, 11:02:00 »

The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which funded (*) Mr Paulley's side has issued the following press statement:
Quote
Commenting in response to today^s court judgment which found that bus company First Group^s policy did not discriminate against wheelchair user Mr Paulley, Chris Holmes, EHRC Disability Commissioner said:

This  judgement means a wheel chair user has no effective legal rights if unable to gain access to a bus because a traveller blocks the designated wheel chair space and refuses to move.
"The Commission is disappointed that the Court of Appeal has not given substantive support to wheelchair users on the same basis as non disabled people in relation to obtaining access to bus transport. The Commission will study the judgments before deciding whether to support an appeal or press for legislative changes to make sure disabled people can use bus travel."
(*) a public body funded by the Department for Education

Mr Paulley's own site: http://www.kingqueen.org.uk/
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ChrisB
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« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2014, 11:11:08 »

So taxpayers/Government are funding a case that Government are at fault for lax legislation (in the view of EHRC)?
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stuving
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« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2014, 11:19:31 »

Surely it's just the normal way of determining what the law is? Government (usually) drafts a bill, parliament (including the Lords) hack it around a bit and then pass it into law, and eventually the courts (in ascending appellate order) look at it and other statues and regulations and tell us what we are meant to be doing. If there is a lot of confusion, a test case may be needed - which is what this is. It may even be one of the things the EHRC was set up to do.
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didcotdean
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« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2014, 11:23:34 »

Indeed if you look at it that way it is First that are doing the EHRC a bit of a favour in helping to clear up the legal position as it stands presently. As I think First has pointed out, it has been involved in at least one similar case where the first court ruled for them which was not appealed by the other party. No one benefits where the result of a case seems to be a lottery.
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grahame
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« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2014, 11:30:24 »

The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which funded (*) Mr Paulley's side has issued the following
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"The Commission is disappointed that the Court of Appeal has not given substantive support to wheelchair users on the same basis as non disabled people in relation to obtaining access to bus transport.

Huh?  I thought the court had supported access on the same basis. What it failed to support was a something that favoured disabled people over able bodied.  "If there's room you can get on" is the usual rule, and the case requested that to be changed to "If there's room you can get on, but if someone disabled comes along and there isn't room for them, you have to get off again to make way for them"

I actually have more sympathy for disabled people than may comment may imply - the "survival of the fittest" rush as Paddington where the elderly, weak, disabled, heavily laden, chubby, occasional long distance travellers fail to get seats when the fit young shorter distance commuters get a comfortable ride.
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stuving
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« Reply #83 on: December 10, 2014, 11:40:29 »

The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which funded (*) Mr Paulley's side has issued the following
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"The Commission is disappointed that the Court of Appeal has not given substantive support to wheelchair users on the same basis as non disabled people in relation to obtaining access to bus transport.

Huh?  I thought the court had supported access on the same basis. What it failed to support was a something that favoured disabled people over able bodied.  

I suspect their viewpoint is pragmatic, not legalistic. Most of a bus is in effect reserved for non wheelchair users, as you couldn't get one in there even if the driver would let you try. They want the bit that is reserved for wheelchairs to at least be always available for the first one to come along. Not unreasonable, but "reasonable" in that sense isn't what appeal courts do.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2016, 01:14:19 »

An update, from the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

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Supreme Court to hear 'wheelchair vs buggy' bus case


Doug Paulley could not get on a FirstGroup bus after a woman with a pushchair refused to move

A wheelchair user who says bus firms should make able-bodied people move from buses' disabled spaces has taken his case to the Supreme Court.

Doug Paulley was told he could not get on a bus to Leeds in 2012 when a mother with a pushchair refused to move.

He says FirstGroup's "requesting, not requiring" policy is discriminatory, but the bus operator says it is the most feasible that can be employed.

Judgement is likely to be reserved and will be delivered in the coming months.

Mr Paulley won an initial case against the operator FirstGroup Plc, declaring its policy of "requesting, not requiring" able-bodied passengers to move to be unlawful disability discrimination.

FirstGroup appealed successfully to the Court of Appeal in 2014.

This is a case about a man getting on a bus, but it has resulted in a four-year legal battle that has now reached the highest court in the land.

Speaking exclusively to the BBC, Mr Paulley said: "I appreciate it is difficult with kids and luggage and everything else, to fold a pushchair, or to move it, but ultimately unless she did that she is effectively stopping me from being able to use that bus. It's about the reasonable adjustments that organisations have to make so that disabled people can have access to the things that other people in society take for granted."

Under the Equality Act 2010, companies providing services must make reasonable adjustments to accommodate the disabled.

Mr Paulley was awarded £5,500 in compensation and FirstGroup was given six months to change its policy of asking - but not making - able-bodied passengers vacate the wheelchair space.

But the judgement in Mr Paulley's favour was reversed by the Court of Appeal in 2014, which ruled that although wheelchair users have priority to occupy the wheelchair space, there is no legal requirement for bus drivers to move other passengers from it.

Mr Paulley appealed against that ruling and now what has been dubbed the "battle between the wheelchair and the buggy" has reached the highest court in the land.

His solicitor Chris Fry, of Unity Law, said: "A panel of seven Supreme Court judges is unusual, and a reflection of the significance of the case."

He said he hoped the court would "finally make the correct legal and moral decision" in support of social inclusion for disabled people.

Mr Paulley's case is being funded by the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Its chief executive Rebecca Hilsenrath told the BBC: "For us, this case is about sending a message across the country to bus companies to put in place policies, clear guidelines, training for bus drivers so that they are able to manage the situation so that they give priority to those in wheelchairs."

The case is the first disability discrimination case involving service providers to be heard by the Supreme Court.

FirstGroup maintains that its policy of "requesting, not requiring" able-bodied people to move from the wheelchair space is lawful.

Giles Fearnley, managing director of its bus division, said: "It is very rare for a passenger to refuse to move. Our drivers will ask a passenger in the strongest, politest way they can to move, and we train them to do so. When someone does refuse to move it is extraordinarily unfortunate, but we do believe that the approach we take is the most feasible under the circumstances."

The judgment is expected to have wide-ranging implications for bus, train and other transport companies and service providers.
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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
LiskeardRich
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« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2016, 06:29:03 »

Googling Mr Paulley reveals he has taken in excess of 40 companies to court for discrimination, winning compensation against most. He was seeking a few grand here as well.

Talking to a bus driver friend about this case, and my own opinion we both think it's unsafe for a parent with two young children to try and hold them both on the bus, especially if standing is required even holding 1 child could be unsafe.

There is 18 months between my oldest two, so required use of a double buggy for a small time before the older one could walk properly. The buggy when folded was still quite spacious and many of the newer buses such as the Optare Solo don't have a luggage rack so nowhere to store a folded buggy anyway.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2016, 06:47:22 »

Not sure about buggies, wheelchairs or buses but several lawyers will have new Aston Martins by the time this is over.
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grahame
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« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2016, 07:07:36 »

Mr Paulley's blog may be found at https://www.kingqueen.org.uk and Freedom of Information requests he has made and the responses received are logged at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/user/doug_paulley
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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2016, 07:20:05 »

Mr Paulley's blog may be found at https://www.kingqueen.org.uk and Freedom of Information requests he has made and the responses received are logged at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/user/doug_paulley

His wetherspoons blog is amusing. Pathetic but amusing. From his Twitter he seems to complain about everything and anything. Good luck if he ever turns up at your business.

However maybe someone like this is good for business improving?
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2016, 09:09:21 »

Mr Paulley's blog may be found at https://www.kingqueen.org.uk and Freedom of Information requests he has made and the responses received are logged at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/user/doug_paulley

His wetherspoons blog is amusing. Pathetic but amusing. From his Twitter he seems to complain about everything and anything. Good luck if he ever turns up at your business.


I suspect he complained about the food being cold by the time he had finished measuring it and got around to eating it!  Grin
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