Restriction on pre-announcement boarding at Paddington

[whole diary]

[John R]

What I'm saying is that for some the extra cost of a First Class ticket is essential, rather than a luxury, and when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) reduce provision it is likely that we will be standing every single day.

But at the same time less Standard Class passengers will be standing. If you replace a whole First Class carriage with a whole Standard Class carriage you go from 48 to up to 84 seats. First Class may be busy at first when the changes are made but I expect anybody who find they are standing in First Class everyday will quite quickly either take an alternative service or start travelling in Standard Class instead. It could well end up losing FGW revenue by reducing the First Class provision, but it seems that it is the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s idea.

But lbraine wasn't suggesting replacing first seating with standard - simply allowing standard class pax to occupy those seats between Paddington and Reading. So no increase in actual seating capacity.

Let's look how this might work in practice coming out of Paddington. For simplicity I'll work with round numbers.  Say there are 100 first class seats, and 500 standard class seats, which is pretty close to the actual capacity of a 2+6 set.  Now suppose we have 75 first class passengers and 700 standard, so 90% standard, 10% first. (ie first is comfortable with 25 spare, standard is horribly overcrowded.)  Under the suggestion, 775 passengers turn up at random, so the first 100 take the 1st class seats. Of these, around 10 will have first class tickets and 90 standard.  There are now 500 seats left, which will be taken by around 50 first class pax and 450 standard. The stragglers will have to stand, being 15 first and 160 standard.

The result is that of the 75 first class pax, 10 get to sit in first, 50 sit in standard, and 15 stand, compared with 75 sitting in first.
For standard class pax, 90 get to sit in first, 450 sit in standard and 160 stand.

Under the current arrangement 75 first class pax sit in first (all), and 500 out of 700 standard class pax sit in standard, with the other 200 standing.

So for the benefit of seating an extra 25 people, 50 first class pax have had to sit in standard and a further 15 have had to stand. That doesn't sound like a proposition which would be appealing to those in FGW finance dept relying on the revenue obtained from 1st class pax.

[lbraine]

We'll I wasn't being as bold as saying removing ALL first class - that's a whole new debate

I admit my proposal may seem radical - but I honestly think we are getting close to that point. I commend FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for introducing the extra HST^▸ (High Speed Train) coach to make it 2+8, but why not 2+9. Yes - impact on costs (isn't there always and someone always has to pay) and infrastructure cost (signalling and short platforms) but truly the increase of 1 coach has had little impact on the capacity and overcrowding. Not to mention a lack of MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) 3 coaches it seems!

So - you have to change the use of the existing stock.

I too read the first class coaches were to be reduced in the HST - part of the recent FGW extension deal - but I see little movement. In comparison I saw my first Turbo with first class decals removed 2 days after the announcement.

Why is it taking so long ? Or has this gone by the wayside ? surely we are not waiting to change the seating ? Remove the decals and classification and get on with it.

If it is still going to happen I think it just strengthen my view that in the long term first class seating will slowly reduce (and, yes, even after the dreaded IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) stock is introduced).

[John R]

We'll I wasn't being as bold as saying removing ALL first class - that's a whole new debate

I admit my proposal may seem radical - but I honestly think we are getting close to that point. I commend FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for introducing the extra HST^▸ (High Speed Train) coach to make it 2+8, but why not 2+9. Yes - impact on costs (isn't there always and someone always has to pay) and infrastructure cost (signalling and short platforms) but truly the increase of 1 coach has had little impact on the capacity and overcrowding. Not to mention a lack of MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) 3 coaches it seems!

As I understand it the option of 2+9 was considered several years ago, and was ruled out on the grounds of:-
i) the HST depots are only capable of taking 2+8, so it was a very substantial cost to increase to 2+9
ii) most of the day the extra coach would be carting around fresh air, so the business case couldn't be made to make such a substantial investment in the depots, let alone the ongoing leasing and operating costs (track access, fuel) of running an additional coach in each set all day long
iii) the performance of running 2+9 would be significant, particularly on the majority of services which have relatively short distances between stops, thus adding to journey times (unlike EC, where you typically have 30 mins+ between stops, so the impact of poorer acceleration is minimal). So you impair journey times all day to the West, South West and South Wales just to seat some more passengers between London and Reading in the peak.

Added to that, whilst there may have been some Mk3's available at the time the subject was considered, there aren't any more, (or certainly not 50+). Thus the DafT inspired stop gap of  reducing 1st until IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) comes along. But even DafT won't live up to their nickname to the extent that  they would suggest standard pax can sit in first from Paddington to Reading.

[thetrout]

I'm not too sure I buy that 2+9 argument. Only on Saturday I witnessed the 17:40 Newton Abbot - London Paddington arrive with 9 Carriages. Admittedly It consisted of the following:

43 - TGS - TF - TFD - TFRB - TS - TS - TSD - TS - TS - TGS - 43

Obviously the TGS at the London End was locked out of use. I've seen this done many times when a carriage needs to be moved somewhere.

I've seen another set recently running around with 2x Coach C's in it; also 9 carrriages.

But also I have witnessed a set consisting of: 43 - TF - TFB^▸ (Trailer First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)) - TS -TSD - TS - TGS - 43

First Class on that set got a little cosy

I don't see why FGW^▸ (First Great Western) need to alter the First Class seating on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) actually. I still think they need to either significantly reduce the First Class Fares during the validity times of SVR/SVS and SSR/SSS Tickets (Off-Peak and Super-Off-Peak Return and Singles retro-retrospectively).

If FGW allowed their Weekend First Promotion to be extended to the Off-Peak Trains in a weekday, perhaps with limited refreshments, I think alot of people would be very tempted to upgrade. GreaterAnglia do something similar for ^10.00 Return on Off Peak Trains which is a First Class Upgrade both ways.


Of course, If FGW decide to change the seating configuration, then would it not be beneficial to adopt the method of Virgin Trains and just have a carriage with 2+2 and only Tabled seating that can be alternated between First and Standard Class as per the capacity requirements?

I think that would be a great idea as the TM^‡(resolve) can make the decision in real time based on the loadings of their train.

I wouldn't be too worried about losing the 2+1 Seating. However the other perks that First Class can offer I perhaps would be.

If FGW also decide to remove the First Class Advance Fares or significantly reduce the availability of them, then sorry, but I'll be going South West Trains when I go to London. With First Advance fares as little as ^11.90 (with railcard) the decision when faced with say a ^50 First Advance is going to be obvious. I would however be willing to pay ^50.00 to go to London in First Class if it meant I could just turn up and travel on any Off Peak Service.

[broadgage]

We'll I wasn't being as bold as saying removing ALL first class - that's a whole new debate

So - you have to change the use of the existing stock.

I too read the first class coaches were to be reduced in the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) - part of the recent FGW^▸ (First Great Western) extension deal - but I see little movement. In comparison I saw my first Turbo with first class decals removed 2 days after the announcement.

Why is it taking so long ? Or has this gone by the wayside ? surely we are not waiting to change the seating ? Remove the decals and classification and get on with it.

If it is still going to happen I think it just strengthen my view that in the long term first class seating will slowly reduce (and, yes, even after the dreaded IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) stock is introduced).

On the turbos, AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) no actual seating was changed, it was simply a case of removing the first class notices and thereby permitting standard class passengers to use seating previously only available to first class ticket holders. Simply removing notices is easily achieved overnight.

On the HSTs AFAIK it is proposed to remove first class seats and install instead standard class seats, this is a little more innvolved and cant be done overnight.

[BerkshireBugsy]

On the turbos, AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) no actual seating was changed, it was simply a case of removing the first class notices and thereby permitting standard class passengers to use seating previously only available to first class ticket holders. Simply removing notices is easily achieved overnight.

Broadgage you are right - on the first modified turbo I saw the sliding doors in to first class appeared to be permanently open, the headrest covers had been removed and the "gold" line had been covered with what appeared to be gaffa tape

All in all a cheap downgrade !

[lordgoata]

Broadgage you are right - on the first modified turbo I saw the sliding doors in to first class appeared to be permanently open, the headrest covers had been removed and the "gold" line had been covered with what appeared to be gaffa tape

All in all a cheap downgrade !

And as a result, standard class passengers are still standing outside, because the chairs don't look like the standard class ones; and some passengers (I assume to be first class) are trying to close the doors and wondering why they don't work anymore.

Judging by my trains in the morning, declassifying first on the turbos has done bugger all, due to none of the passengers actually being told about it!

[IndustryInsider]

Judging by my trains in the morning, declassifying first on the turbos has done bugger all, due to none of the passengers actually being told about it!

I'm sure it will slowly dawn on people - in the meantime then make the most of it yourself by being one of the few that know.  It does make practically no difference though as the busiest trains in the morning saw widespread misuse of first class anyway (and still do in the remaining accommodation).  Some trains are so full the first class section is also packed solid with standing passengers.  8-Car EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s are desperately needed post-electrification and 10-car ones post-Crossrail, but until then I can't see much happening apart from a bit of tinkering here and there with the current fleet

Regarding 2+9 HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s, perhaps the best chance of that will be post IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) introduction on the sets that remain as there will be plenty of spare carriages to add to them?  Though, I'm with ChrisB on this one - don't expect anything above and beyond the current part conversion of one carriage to happen before then, and there would be performance issues leading to slower journey times in Cornwall where the stops are frequent.

Suggestions of first class being used for standard class passengers at certain times of the day creates far more issues than it solves, though perhaps IEP's being built as standard class only makes more sense?  Can't see it ever happening though given the number of wealthy passengers who still use FGW^▸ (First Great Western) at peak times, and the ability to offer cheaper advance first class fares at other times of the day.

[ChrisB]

Adding a 9th to HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) would mean amending the selective door opening sequences too, so not an overnight job. They are replacing the 1st class seats with high-density Standard seats during their next exam....

[Southern Stag]

The SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) works fine for 2+9 sets. You do get 2+9 sets every now and then, particularly the Summer Newquay trains used to be booked for 2+9 sets.

[JayMac]

I recently travelled on a 2+9 set. We keep to time throughout the journey. I think the acceleration and Devon Banks issues are overstated. However, fuel consumption may be of concern to the operator. Also, running on one engine may be more problematical, but that can be equally true of 2+8 sets.

I think there was sufficient un-utilised Mk3 stock stored that could've been pressed into use if there was the will, and the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) were willing to stump up most of the cost. The ropiness of that remaining stock would have determined how much needed to be spent. However, it would've been a big spend for a relatively short period of use. Instead though FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and the DfT have gone for the cheaper option of converting some existing 1st Class accommodation to Standard.

[dog box]

There are five coaches  at Wabtec Kilmarnock now being converted to TS Spec. they are all ex buffet coaches three of these are ex Virgin vehicles which have been out of use for ten years