GroupSave Blackout Dates - where to find them in advance?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

At Chippenham Station last night ... a notice saying that GroupSave isn't available to Bath and listing the Saturdays in December.   Enquiry of ticket office elicited the information that it's only to Bath that the limit applies.

Where do I find this information / timing details / other information online - do I just have to try each journey I'm interested in making and see what the booking engine says?

The FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Train-times-and-tickets/Ticket-types/Leisure-tickets

refers me to

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/48462.aspx

Which only contains dates up to the end of November - not good for planning preChristmas trips / publicity for such trips.

[eightf48544]

Be interesting to know why just Bath presumably it's to discourage hoards of Christmas shoppers forming parties of 4. Or is it just that First wanting more revenue?

[grahame]

Be interesting to know why just Bath presumably it's to discourage hoards of Christmas shoppers forming parties of 4. Or is it just that First wanting more revenue?

It could be because of Rugby, and it could just be certain times of day. And does it apply purely Chippenham to Bath, or Chippenham via Bath?

[devon_metro]

Is one entitled to buy Groupsave to Oldfield Park and break my journey at Bath Spa?

[thetrout]

I would assume it would be the Christmas Markets.

Contraversially I understand why FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have done this... The trains used by the Christmas Market Shoppers creates the anomaly of too many people for the number of trains available.

First Class often gets declassified on Paddington Trains up to at least Swindon. (My experience)

Of course the restriction might not cover Oldfield Park and there is nothing to stop you using PlusBus from there. And some trains a change at Bath Spa for Oldfield Park is necessary anyway. The barriers would also allow you to break the journey and would give you the ticket back which of course you'll keep for returning to continue to Oldfield Park later if you were to break the journey...

Also the Christmas Market will run on the same day as some Home Rugby Matches... Bad news!

[bobm]

Last night when I was at Bath Spa they were hanging signage to guide people home from the Bath Christmas market.



The positioning seems a little odd, unless there are going to be special stopping places. as the signs seem to be sending people beyond the 3/4 car stopping point for the services which are normally 2 or 3 car....

Incidentally how many people does it take to hang a sign?  Answer - one man up a ladder, a "ribena girl" to pass the scissors and cable ties to him, two platform staff and a "suit" to watch. 

[BandHcommuter]

They did something similar at Bath platform 2 last year. The trains towards Westbury stopped further along the platform than usual - I think it was to avoid crowding on the platform near the top of the stairs.

[ChrisB]

Where high demand exists (usually sport, but Xmas markets count too), why would a commercial organisation want to give a discount (that is used to fill seats)?....seems barmy to me, when demand for seats is already probably beyond the seating available....

That'll be why there are blackout dates. Because there is no need for a discount to fill seats.

There is a list of forward dates (around two months in advance usually) - the Customer Panel have seen them. If you have a date in mind, a quick email to Customer services will probably advise whether they will be available on given dates

[JayMac]

The 'definitive source' for rail information (including tickets) - National Rail Enquiries - makes no mention of barred dates in December.

Unless and until it does, none can be enforced IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

Telling the Customer Panel isn't enough. Requesting passengers contact the operator for what is, essentially, a contract term for GroupSave tickets isn't enough.

The correct information should be available at the time of enquiry. All I know is that there's a supposed bar for Bath Spa in December. No dates, no times.

Why not ChrisB, as you appear to have the information, actually reply to the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter)'s query rather than give them the additional hoop to jump through of contacting FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Customer Services to find specific details of dates, times and stations. Is Oldfield Park and then a bus into Bath OK for example. Are GroupSave trips to locations via a change at Bath also barred? If it's this week they wish to travel they may not get a reply soon enough from CS.

[ChrisB]

A polite request would have been appreciated, Sir!

As it happens, I don't have the required info. I have seen these info sheets in the past, so I now that they're prepared.

I also disagree with what you write. Groupsave is NOT a legally required offer, and can therefore be offered exactly when any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) wishes to offer it. Or not, as they wish. So no 'rules' exist, and can presumably be imposed or not as they wish - just as if you walk into Tescos & see an offer one day. It only exists while it is specifically advertised. The wording in the Groupsave offerstates it can operate on selected dates.

I agree with the TOC in this instance - if you want to check availability, all you need do is to email and ask. But don't go looking more than 2 months in advance.

[JayMac]

GroupSave is an advertised offer.

What is missing are the terms and conditions of the offer.

You've used a supermarket analogy. So I'll do likewise for the current situation with GroupSave, even though its a poor comparison. Supermarkets don't have and enforce their own primary legislation. "You can have four apples for the price of two but there are certain times and dates when you can't. We're not telling you when you can't have this offer. You'll have to email our head office to find out."

That's essentially what FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and NRE^‡(resolve) are doing at the moment, with no list of barred dates/times beyond November 2013. Reasonable to assume then that the offer is currently unrestricted?

You may well say, that booking engines and journey planners are applying these hidden dates/times, but that's not good enough if they don't explain why. Anyone making a special offer still has legal responsibility to make the terms of the offer clear. They can't, as you say, 'do what they want'. If selected dates/times are barred these need to be communicated clearly. Particularly when someone falling foul of a hidden term could end up with a criminal record, say, after buying at a station or onboard. I have little faith that every clerk, Guard or ATE (some of whom may well be working for different TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)) will be told, or remember, all the barred dates/times/locations.

Only the rail industry, and its apologists, seem to think it is okay to keep the terms of a special offer hidden from plain sight.

Looks like I'll email and ask then. Experience tells me I'll have the answer for this Saturday's restrictions sometime next week. 

[Fourbee]

I had a dig in the archive for 2012, sorry about any formatting issues from the cut & paste. "Minus 1" from the dates to have a guess for 2013's one e.g. Saturday 1 December 2012 -> Saturday 30 November 2013.
Taken from: http://web.archive.org/web/20121016033205/http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/groupsave_calendar.html

*** 2012 ***
Saturday 1 December    First Great Western    All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Saturday 1 December    First Great Western    Services to Newbury or Newbury Racecourse before 13:40    Horse Racing
Saturday 1 December    First Great Western    All services to Cardiff Central before 14:00    Rugby
Friday  7 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

Overcrowding
Saturday 8 December    First Great Western    All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Friday  14 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

Overcrowding
Saturday 15 December    First Great Western    All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Friday  21 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

Overcrowding
Saturday 22 December    
First Great Western
   All services to Bath Spa before 14:00    Bath Chritmas Market
Friday  28 December    First Great Western    Not valid on 14:06, 15:06, 16:06, 17:03, 18:03, 19:03 London Paddington - Penzance.    

[thetrout]

I agree with the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) in this instance - if you want to check availability, all you need do is to email and ask. But don't go looking more than 2 months in advance.

Why do you suggest 2 months if I may ask?? The journey planner allows booking 3 months in advance, so I am sorry but I disagree with you in suggesting that you shouldn't get more than 2 months. That allows you to book tickets and enter into a contract for a period that the restrictions may not even be known or set!

I would have thought it would be a "hypothetically unfair contract" to purchase a Groupsave 4 in December for travel late February/Early March from Brighton - Salisbury. Then in January have the restrictions announced that GroupSave tickets are barred to Salisbury on the day you've booked. The TOC would then argue that as they have changed the terms and conditions with "reasonable notice" that you are entitled to a full refund without penalty or admin charges. But the tickets are now not valid as we have made you aware in plenty of time and the onus is on the contractee to claim a refund. So technically it could be argued that the TOC entered into a contract where it could not deliver the agreed service without potentially changing the agreement. Very dubious business practice when the contractee will find their ticket prices have potentially more than doubled!!

That in my eyes is a blatant breach of contract (Yes I'm being intentionally heavy-handed there) as the TOC is allowing you to enter into a contract for which it cannot provide the full terms and conditions of the contract at the time the parties enter into the agreement. If they then change the conditions I would expect to have the tickets honored for changing the terms of contract post contract commitment. I would not accept a refund because I kept my end of the bargin and I reckon that would be an interesting court case if the TOC refused travel/issued an MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court)!

So to summerise. Restrictions should be published for the same period of time as bookings are taken for... No exceptions. Any amendments to restrictions should honor tickets already purchased prior to the restrictions being announced if necessary.

[grahame]

GroupSave is indeed a marketing offer, which the Train Operating Company can run with, indeed, it's own set of rules as to when it's valid and when it's not.  And from a marketing standpoint, it makes complete logical sense for them not to offer it when trains are going to be rammed even without it.   I don't think anyone doubts that - but those rules need to be clear, and published well in advance.

Over coming weeks and months, we want to encourage people to use the TransWilts train services.   Get people who have never used trains in the recent past, tell them about something specific they can go and see (the sales in Oxford Street from 27th December, pehaps) and encourage them to take the step of spending money on train fares with a Groupsave offer.  But there's a problem in that at the CRP^▸ (Community Rail Partnership) we need to know, months in advance, precise rules on GroupSave cutoffs. And that's why its so disappointing there's no website telling us where the restrictions are coming up. We can't practically try out all the fares on all the trains on all the days we suggest, nor can we take a risk in suggesting GroupSave to find that 4 adults and 2 children get o the train expecting to pay a total of 99 pounds and end up paying 242.50

If it's a marketing offer, the offer should to be clearly specified in good time, and not have late / fine print that leaves a sour taste in the customer's mouth.  Sweet tastes fade quickly, sour tastes take a long time go go away.

[John R]

Checking on National Rail, it does adjust for GroupSave blackouts. As an example, if you try Chippenham to Bath on Friday, it's ^10 for 4 people, rising to ^20 on Saturday.

So I don't think it's entirely fair to say that there is no way of finding out. Indeed, I'd suggest most people are likely to check the price by putting in their journey details, rather than checking a fairly obscure page of National Rail or FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s websites. In the Chippenham case, if a notice has been placed at the station recently advising of the restriction then that is also warning passengers who may travel regularly to Bath on a Saturday that in December it may cost them more.

Of course, as Trout says, if you've already booked your ticket, and got the discount, then contractually you should be allowed to travel.