DMU cascade

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

Gunnislake branch is interesting. Currently the only 23m stock permitted along there are the single carriage 153s. The curvature after Bere Alston is quite tight.

Isnt the problem with a pair of class 153's on the gunnislake branch also down to the fact that the snowplough/cowcatchers can catch each other going around the very tight curves?

[ChrisB]

I wouldn't - there's no mention of Tavistock extension in the documents that I've seen.

[John R]

Related to the title, I see that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) has very magnanimously granted 2 emu's for the north west electrification which goes live this December. Despite having had 3 years to prepare, and with tens of emu's coming off the production line (not to mention quite a few in warm storage), only 2 are being found to run between Manchester and Liverpool. As for the St Helens branch to Wigan, er well that won't have any units although it will also be ready by December.

So not many dmu's to be cascaded, and indeed both will stay in the north west to provide a unit for the Todmorden curve service, and some extra capacity for the Bolton line (which suffered from the loss of TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) services last December).

I expect Northern politicians to be duly unimpressed.

[paul7575]

Isn't the full story that they've organised a deal for 12 EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) to be delivered over the course of the calendar year?    As always, the headlines will probably be based on 2 rather than 12 though. 

I do agree it could all have been done much faster.  They've had plenty of notice, but as it is they aren't even following the timescales shown in the TSGN franchise ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender) published only a few months ago.  That firmly implied the first 6 x 319s would be available from May 2014...

Paul

[northwestuser]

The full story is as clear as mud.

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) have said Northern will have 2 x 4 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) in service on Liverpool-Manchester from December 2014 (there's provision for around 10 extra EMU diagrams in the North West in the December timetable change including the 'South Manchester' peak time services which are operated by DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) due to an insufficient number of 323s.) 

DfT have also said Northern will have 40 additional carriages by next year.

Northern have said they'll have 3 x 4 car 319s by the December timetable change.  (3 units and 2 diagrams makes sense.)

Northern have said they'll have 14 x 4 car 319s by next year - that's 56 carriages.

The difference of 16 has been put to Northern (it is understood one way of TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) coping without the 170/3s would be to take 8 x 2 car 158s from Northern) to which their response was "I have confirmation that we are getting 14 x 4 carriage trains, definitely 56 on our calculator! We aren't losing any trains to any other operator."

Maybe the option of TPE taking 158s from Northern is still be considered but not a done deal which is why DfT say Northern will get 40 extra carriages but Northern say they're getting 14 x 319s and not losing any trains to another operator.

[northwestuser]

According to the Transport for Greater Manchester committee "Members were pleased to note that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) had confirmed that the proposal to relocate Class 170 diesel units from the north of England to the south east would not now take place."

[ChrisB]

oooh, got an online link for this? Where did you see it?

[northwestuser]

It's posted on another forum, originating from these meeting minutes: http://www.transportforgreatermanchestercommittee.gov.uk/tfgmc/downloads/file/4826/item_04_minutes_28_march_2014

[Network SouthEast]

It's worth noting that the 170s are only going to stay with TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) until February 2016. The full Oxford to London Marylebone service will commence in Spring 2016. Whilst an interim service is expected to start to Oxford Parkway in Summer 2015, the lack of 170s for Chiltern is only going to be a short term issue for them.

[ChrisB]

Eh? That minute note says that they're not transferring. Full stop. Not that they're now not going until Feb16 - which was the case in the first place and would be no change.

[bobm]

For ease of discussion - I have copied the relevant paragraph of the minutes below

Members were pleased to note that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) had confirmed that the proposal to
relocate Class 170 diesel units from the north of England to the south east
would not now take place. Northern Rail noted that following the Direct Award
announcement their fleet level had been retained until February 2016 and that
discussions regarding the provision of electric rolling stock were continuing
with DfT.

[northwestuser]

I can't really see a Feb 2016 transfer working.  The new TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) franchisee won't be able to make timetable or diagrams changes before May 2016.  So if Chiltern do take the 170/3s in Feb 2016 then the new franchisee will need to lease alternative 100mph DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit), unless First TPE do a timetable recast in December 15 to allow for slower stock being used.

Currently no 185s will be released until at least December 2016 (subject to the franchisee securing electric stock to operate Blackpool services) and the 185s released from there are supposed to provide an additional hourly Piccadilly-Selby service.  So it'll be December 2018 (when North TPE wires are ready to use) before TPE will be able to release DMUs to other operators without taking on replacement diesel stock.

The Northern reference in the quote posted by bobm is due to DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) proposing that Northern could sub-lease 158s to TPE to fill the gap left by the departure of the 170/3s, so it's confirmation that Northern won't be losing 158s to any operator (including TPE) before the end of the current franchise.

I wouldn't rule out a merry-go-round of cascades in late 2015/early 2016.  TPE will need more trains and LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise)'s lease on their 170s expires on 20/09/2015 with the option for an up to 28 week extension, so the next TPE franchisee could approach Porterbrook for some of those (in the same way Chiltern has done) but then LM will need additional stock - the LO 172s would be ideal for them but then they're not available until at least 2017 and so it goes on.

[ChrisB]

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) still thinks that they're going to Chiltern in April 2015....letter to his oppo in Labour *after* the date of the meeting those minutes refer to....

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/transport/08%20-%20Letter%20from%20Patrick%20Mcloughlin%20to%20ChairTransPennine%20Rolling%20Stock.pdf

So....which is right?

[northwestuser]

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) still thinks that they're going to Chiltern in April 2015....letter to his oppo in Labour *after* the date of the meeting those minutes refer to....

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/transport/08%20-%20Letter%20from%20Patrick%20Mcloughlin%20to%20ChairTransPennine%20Rolling%20Stock.pdf

So....which is right?

What date was the letter actually written though?  Like with most MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) letters it's been written out the date wasn't included at the time the letter was written but at the date it was signed.  The new Northern franchise was signed a few days before the letter was dated so it could have been written prior to that. 

Maybe an agreement has been reached for TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) to take 170s currently with another operator meaning the North isn't losing 170s to the South East but Chiltern are still getting 170s?

[ChrisB]

That is certainly one way of reading between the lines of that letter - but from where though, in time for April 2015?