DMU cascade

[whole diary]

[John R]

Modern Railways reports that the 9 Class 170 operated by TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) are moving to Chiltern to provide stock for the Oxford to London service.

This surprises me, as

a) previously it's been reported that TPE would be keeping all their existing stock to strengthen their services, so this will be an unwelcome announcement in the north

b) I thought that one of the reasons why Chiltern were switching to more loco-hauled sets was to provide capacity for the new service

c) given the national shortage of dmus, it seems odd that one operator has bagged 9 relatively nice units, when others are crying out for more stock. Accusations of DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) favouring the south will no doubt follow, particularly given some of the noises currently being made about the next Northern franchise (which appears to be in danger of repeating the mistakes of the last "no growth" Northern franchise.)

[anthony215]

This was 1st suggested back in novermber 2013.
There was a suggestion that Chiltern could use the class 170's to release up some class 165's for use elsewhere.

I am sure FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would love to have a couple extra class 165's perhaps some could make their way westwards or free up 150001 & 150002 to allow them to be used around Bristol.

Anyway I think we will be seeing  a lot more dmu casades. As for these 9 units I wonder what TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) are going to use to replace them

[thetrout]

Anyway I think we will be seeing  a lot more dmu casades. As for these 9 units I wonder what TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) are going to use to replace them

Class 350's?

[John R]

Anyway I think we will be seeing  a lot more dmu casades. As for these 9 units I wonder what TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) are going to use to replace them

Class 350's?

Yes, but the original plan was that the units displaced by the Class 350s would be used to strengthen existing TPE services and add an additional tph between Manchester and Leeds. 

[ChrisB]

This surprises me, as

b) I thought that one of the reasons why Chiltern were switching to more loco-hauled sets was to provide capacity for the new service

They did - 4 silver sets now in use - but the stock displaced is already in use coping with additional pax since that plan was envisaged. So they still need more to provide units for Oxford. As this is a new service, they'll want Clubman 168s on the Oxford services.

What's the top speed of these 170s? And the seating layout? Tables?

To displace Clubmans, they'll need to be capable of 100mph....

[mjones]

100mph isn't it? The 168 was basically the forerunner of the 170 wasn't it? But compatible for multiple working with 165/166 rather than with the Sprinter 15x family, as is I believe to be the case with the 170s.

[ChrisB]

The 172s Chiltern has are definitely 100mph - just checking the whole fleet of 17xs are the same.

And what about seating layouts?

[Network SouthEast]

Yes, all Turbostars (168/170/171/172) have a top speed of 100mph.

8 of the 9 class 170s used by TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) started life new with SWT^▸ (South West Trains). They had a 1st class compartment behind each cab, but TPE reseated one compartment to standard class when they took them on. 1 universal toilet and 1 standard toilet along with a mixture of airline and bay seating in 2+2 layout (1+2 in 1st).

Although as said above, 170s are not compatible with 165s, 168s or 172s, Poterbrook believe the modification to change capability us straight forward. A few years ago now, but Porterbrook also coverted a SWT 170 to become a 171 for Southern.

[Southern Stag]

The conversion from a 170 to 171 would be less straight forward as it actually involves changing the coupler from a BSI^▸ (British Standards Institute) type coupler to a Dellner type coupler. From what I understand making the FTPE^» (First TransPennine Express - website) 170s compatible with the Chiltern fleet would just be a minor modification. I believe the reason that Chiltern appears to have acquired these 170s is not so much a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) decision, but more the result of DfT indecision. With the FTPE franchise nearing its end and with a direct award yet to be negotiated for the next franchise FTPE have not been allowed to renew leases on their stock beyond the end of their current franchise. Chiltern has simply taken up the lease on the 170s at the end of the current deal.

[John R]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26438550

So as might be expected this is starting to get prominent negative coverage in the north. Apparently it was an item on the local news last night.

Here's an interesting quote "But the Department for Transport (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)) said replacement trains would be leased so that services can continue.". Given the lack of dmus available for the next couple of years, I suspect most of the rolling stock displaced by the second phase of the NW Electrification will end up, directly or indirectly, backfilling for the Class 170s.

In which case, they won't be available for anywhere else. It does seem odd that previously the DfT has been all over rolling stock reallocations, which is probably not a bad thing given the need to identify the most appropriate uses for such a scarce resource. And yet here, it seems as though they've stood back and let Chiltern snaffle the units. Or they've actually been complicit in the deal, but are choosing to shrug their shoulders and say "nothing to do with us, guv".

Roll on Dec 2016 when the dmu shortage should well and truly be over with at least 3 electrification schemes completing.

[Rhydgaled]

Roll on Dec 2016 when the dmu shortage should well and truly be over with at least 3 electrification schemes completing.

Except that there's nothing (to my knowledge, except maybe ScotRail's projects) that will release regional express stock (eg. class 158s) for the likes of Cardiff - Portsmouth

[IndustryInsider]

Interesting how at it's inception Chiltern had a nice uniform fleet of Class 165s, but after this cascade will find itself with a rather higgledy piggledy mess of Class 165s, Class 168s, Class 170s, Class 172s, Mk 3 Carriages, Class 67s, DVTs^‡(resolve), and (probably eventually) Class 68s!

[ChrisB]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26438550

So as might be expected this is starting to get prominent negative coverage in the north. Apparently it was an item on the local news last night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hSY0hRZbKQ&feature=share&list=UUka0DcTIv4FzSOwj32jQB-Q

Or they've actually been complicit in the deal, but are choosing to shrug their shoulders and say "nothing to do with us, guv".

That's my bet. DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) staffer regularly told the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Customer Panel that "the DfT don't micro-manage the stock leasing" - seriously! Since I challenged him on this, he hasn't returned, even though the DfT get a standing invitation....

Interesting how at it's inception Chiltern had a nice uniform fleet of Class 165s, but after this cascade will find itself with a rather higgledy piggledy mess of Class 165s, Class 168s, Class 170s, Class 172s, Mk 3 Carriages, Class 67s, DVTs^‡(resolve), and (probably eventually) Class 68s!

I have it on good authority (DM me if you want to know more) that Chiltern have their name on some 68s. But that is probably in place of the rotten 67s.

Oh, and I wonder *where* Chiltern are going to depot these 173s?....:-o

[Lee]

I only read that quickly, and to begin with I thought you said the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) got a standing ovation 

[Southern Stag]

Or they've actually been complicit in the deal, but are choosing to shrug their shoulders and say "nothing to do with us, guv".

That's my bet. DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) staffer regularly told the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Customer Panel that "the DfT don't micro-manage the stock leasing" - seriously! Since I challenged him on this, he hasn't returned, even though the DfT get a standing invitation....

From what I've seen elsewhere this is very much the result of DfT incompetence rather than a deliberate decision. It's also worth noting that the interim franchise director at the DfT, Peter Wilkinson, recently criticised the ROSCOs^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) once more, claiming that the rolling stock market was not working. Well this is the rolling stock market in action.