An oblique light on ...several topics

[whole diary]

[stuving]

I wrote this record of the trip that produced these pictures and comments, intending to see if a few bits could be posted where relevant. In the end I thought it cast a light, somewhat obliquely, on a number of current topics so I have posted it in extenso.

For a couple of examples of relevance, see::

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14189.0 and many other threads

As has been noted before: railway paradise does not starts at Calais.

... or, if you heap subsidy on a railway, does it make in wonderful?

I wanted to try the new tram-train line in Nantes, which meant getting there by train from Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie. I also wanted to try using a D^couverte ticket - a 25% off-peak reduction on most local trains outside Paris. That meant getting the 9:21 from Saint Gilles, though to be honest the previous train at 7:17 was never an option.

That's a big gap between the last "commuter" train and the first one for tourists, shopping, setting off on longer trips, and whatever. There are not even any intervening SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) buses doing train imitations. So you'd expect the 9:21 to be quite busy. So we all get on ... a single-carriage TER (A TER X-73500, diesel, 79 seats). This is full by he time we get halfway, and people are struggling to stand in among the luggage (there's a lot of that) well before Nantes. There's no guard on board. The seats, at least in the facing 4s, are very worn and far from clean. I note something I've seen before in France - passengers (especially older women) prefer to sit next to someone and facing forwards than next to an empty seat and facing backwards.

We are at least on time, and at Nantes I dash off to buy a 24-hour TAN ticket (^4.60) at the tram stop outside the station. I'm not sure how you buy one if your first ride is a train - like lots of city integrated transport ticketing systems, it has its creaky parts. This has to be validated in a green machine - not a yellow SNCF one. These are mainly in trams and buses, but also at tram stops and urban railway stations (not on tram-trains). Here, the ticket tells you it has to be stamped "from the first boarding", whereas in Rennes the Metro tickets tell you to stamp them at every boarding, and there are no machines on the trains: all this is just stuff you need to know.

The tram-train is posted as waiting at platform 55, one of four new bays built or rebuilt for this service. With less then ten minutes to go, it's all closed and parked (red lights both ends) and while there are lots of staff passing that's because it's on the route to their office. Then this guy - not in uniform -  appears and says "I've just found your one, it's round here" and leads us to platform 54, front tram-train. This has the right destination on it - Suc^-sur-Erdre - and soon the doors open, the internal CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) starts running, and a recorded PA^▸ (Public Address) announcement confirms this. When I last saw it, the display at the platform end still said P55 (or V55, if you prefer).

Each tram-train has 98 seats, 146 standing places, though it feels more like a train layout than that (maybe that was just the part of it I was in). There are fewer than ten of us on board. The first stretch is along a railway, between one remaining freight-only track and a pair of tram tracks. We only manage a slow pace, even for a tram, up to the point where our line goes off into the country on its own. We then speed up a bit, though there are several stations here apparently in the middle of nowhere (actually for new business parks and a cluster of sports facilities; oddly "Erdre-Active" is one of the former).

We arrive at La Chapelle Centre on time at 11:30, which is 20 minutes for just over 11 km (i.e. 33 km/hr). The rest of the full distance to Ch^teaubriant is 53 km, and takes 47 minutes (i.e. 68 km/hr,). That is more respectable, but only if you don't think it is a train. The line from Saint Gilles to Saint Pazanne is closing in September to be ripped up and replaced over the winter as it is barely serviceable, but even here the lowest speed limit is 60 km/hr. La Chapelle is within the TAN area, so my ticket covers this journey. The full distance is ^9.90 full fare (^0.155/km), and I'm sure there is a complicated fare to add to the TAN ticket to go further.

After my lunch in La Chapelle (very sleepy suburban village - but this being France it still has a couple of decent little restaurants, and if it wasn't Monday there would be more open - oh, if only ...) I go back to the station to find the next service due at 14:09 is "supprim^" due to "attente d'une rame ou de la locomotive", i.e. delay to an earlier service (in this case the incoming train was cancelled). This was not a total surprise a I'd seen several such cancellations on real-time info before, and also on the other tram-train line to Vertou. As far as I know there wasn't any strike on, so whether it was staff or equipment issues I still don't know.

Anyway, the display said to take the 15:02 Suc^-sur-Erdre, which is an odd way to put it as that's its start, and here it is the 15:09 to Nantes (i.e. the next one). Later I found the 16:09 was also supprim^, but with a replacement bus. So I went off to find a bus - four an hour that connect with tram line T2 - about 10-15 minutes slower but to the centre of Nantes (as opposed to the station).

The first off-peak train back to Saint Gilles was at 18:39, but the previous one is at 18:10, so I wasn't sure how full the later one would be. There was no platform posted for it until about 8 minutes to go, and it still was not fully prepared when we got to it. It was two of the articulated four-car diesel TER X76500 units (220 seats each), which split at Saint Pazanne with half going to Pornic. Usually these have displays on them with the destination (though very small and easy to miss). The platform display and the tannoys both say the front half goes to Pornic, but which way it sets off is not obvious (it's away from Pornic, as it happens). One half had window labels saying "Pornic", the other half had none but the ones for Saint Gilles were put up after I had got on This was within 5 minutes of going, and a group of teenage lads had to change halves right on departure time. Still, we were only two minutes late setting off, and on time from then. There being hardly any passengers helped - just 5 at Saint Gilles, and I think about the same number got off my half on the way. Given that there was a certain important football match at the same time, maybe I should have expected reduced passenger numbers.

What seems to happen is that train sizes are decided by the up services into Nantes, not the down ones. The last four down trains stay overnight, and need to be put in their two platforms so as to come out in reverse order. In the past I have been on a very crowded last down train, for which the next up working is scarily early (4:41) so only needs one carriage. Incidentally, the station has no perimeter security - they don't even lock the gate - but I have never seen any graffiti on the station or the trains. Now this is only a little seaside town, but its holidaymakers come from other places, including big cities.

My ticket wasn't checked on the way back either, though there was a guard who walked past me more than once and said "bonsoir" the first time. My ticket said "D^couvete s^nior - Age ^ justifier" and I wanted to find out what was expected, or accepted, as documentary evidence of being over 60. Where identity has to be demonstrated, the rules call for a valid document with photo, listing an ID card, passport, or resident's card; but I could not find anything specified to prove age.

What counts as off-peak? This fare (also available for 12-25s) needs no card, and works for all TERs (until last year it was also for Intercit^s trains without compulsory reservation). Most days you cancannot use a train timed to leave 6:30-8:00 or 17:00-18:30. On Fridays the latter period becomes 14:00-20:00, on Saturday it's OK all day, and on Sunday there is one peak of 15:00-20:00. Holiday long weekends are generally made up of a "Friday", several "Saturdays", and a kind of "Sunday". Note that none of this applies to Paris (and possibly to some other big cities) where the local trains are not branded TER. The full version is here.

The complexity of the British railway fares system has often been commented on here. For comparison, look at pages 8-9 (10-11 in the PDF) here. Every coloured block is a different fare type, though there are five in one block - I make I 26 in all, though there are some more variants in the detailed text.

As I may have said before: if there are two quite different ways of doing the same thing, however mundane, us and the French will find them.

[grahame]

I wrote this record of the trip that produced these pictures and comments, intending to see if a few bits could be posted where relevant. In the end I thought it cast a light, somewhat obliquely, on a number of current topics so I have posted it in extenso.

Many thanks for the full post - I've found it really useful in informing me via comparisons .. and I see similarities and differences on what I work closely with ...

I wanted to try the new tram-train line in Nantes, which meant getting there by train from Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie. I also wanted to try using a D^couverte ticket - a 25% off-peak reduction on most local trains outside Paris. That meant getting the 9:21 from Saint Gilles, though to be honest the previous train at 7:17 was never an option. That's a big gap between the last "commuter" train and the first one for tourists, shopping, setting off on longer trips, and whatever.

Yep, 07:48 to 10:04. Feels even worse than it is, because of two completely missing hours and a change in the first digit from "0" to "1".

There are not even any intervening SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) buses doing train imitations. So you'd expect the 9:21 to be quite busy. So we all get on ... a single-carriage TER (A TER X-73500, diesel, 79 seats). This is full by the time we get halfway, and people are struggling to stand in among the luggage (there's a lot of that) well before Nantes.

And are tickets interchangeable between buses and trains if people DO end up on a bus?   I don't (yet) recognise our 10:04 as being packed, and the luggage is not such an issue.   Do people in France make longer distance journeys on this train (in which case the lots of luggage and less peaky peak is what I would expect) or are there other nationalistic differences?

There's no guard on board. The seats, at least in the facing 4s, are very worn and far from clean. I note something I've seen before in France - passengers (especially older women) prefer to sit next to someone and facing forwards than next to an empty seat and facing backwards.

She fancied you  - that's why she sat next to you

... all this is just stuff you need to know.

It seems a worldwide thing that people are expected to know the system.  And, recall, there are four different sets of instructions I have to write for newcomers across five stations on the TransWilts service so it's not even consistent

The tram-train is posted as waiting at platform 55, one of four new bays built or rebuilt for this service. With less then ten minutes to go, it's all closed and parked (red lights both ends) and while there are lots of staff passing that's because it's on the route to their office. Then this guy - not in uniform -  appears and says "I've just found your one, it's round here" and leads us to platform 54, front tram-train. This has the right destination on it - Suc^-sur-Erdre - and soon the doors open, the internal CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) starts running, and a recorded PA^▸ (Public Address) announcement confirms this. When I last saw it, the display at the platform end still said P55 (or V55, if you prefer).

I am minded of the people standing at the bay in Swindon trying to get the doors of the 150 / 158 parked up there to open while the 153 on the front to Westbury pulls out.   And I'm minded of the last minute scrambles at Paddington, where the knowledgable and fittest get the seats with the proverbial little old lady who travels rarely finding herself squashed in the lobby.

there are several stations here apparently in the middle of nowhere (actually for new business parks and a cluster of sports facilities; oddly "Erdre-Active" is one of the former).

It's always struck me as unfortunate how transport (I'm thinking of our bus No. 15) was started after many/most new houses were occupied to the East of Melksham, so that the houses had largely been limited in sale to people with cars, and many people had gone out and made alternative plans rather than awaiting a bus service.  Then they wonder why the bus is quiet!

The first off-peak train back to Saint Gilles was at 18:39, but the previous one is at 18:10, so I wasn't sure how full the later one would be. There was no platform posted for it until about 8 minutes to go, and it still was not fully prepared when we got to it. It was two of the articulated four-car diesel TER X76500 units (220 seats each), which split at Saint Pazanne with half going to Pornic. Usually these have displays on them with the destination (though very small and easy to miss). The platform display and the tannoys both say the front half goes to Pornic, but which way it sets off is not obvious (it's away from Pornic, as it happens). One half had window labels saying "Pornic", the other half had none but the ones for Saint Gilles were put up after I had got on This was within 5 minutes of going, and a group of teenage lads had to change halves right on departure time.

Yep ... again the assumption that passengers will know about split trains.  In practise, the majority of TransWilts conductors are aware of the problem and will check the platform before leaving, and at Westbury / Trowbridge they try to make sure they don't have anyone for Bath Spa on board (exception - first Sunday train that gets to to Bath nearly an hour earlier if you change at Chippenham!)

What seems to happen is that train sizes are decided by the up services into Nantes, not the down ones. The last four down trains stay overnight, and need to be put in their two platforms so as to come out in reverse order. In the past I have been on a very crowded last down train, for which the next up working is scarily early (4:41) so only needs one carriage.

Are you sure the 04:41 is quiet?  I've been surprised at the busyness of certain very early morning trains ... but I will grant that things like the 05:24 (?) Westbury to Salisbury tends to be an ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) in passenger service.   

You've also highlighted the problem of trains being full for only a part of their diagram ... indeed I'm getting "full and standing" TransWilts reports and yet only expect about 160,000 or 500,000 million seats to be taken this year.

My ticket wasn't checked on the way back either, though there was a guard who walked past me more than once and said "bonsoir" the first time. My ticket said "D^couvete s^nior - Age ^ justifier" and I wanted to find out what was expected, or accepted, as documentary evidence of being over 60. Where identity has to be demonstrated, the rules call for a valid document with photo, listing an ID card, passport, or resident's card; but I could not find anything specified to prove age.

There's a stereotyping that expects certain characteristics of people who are basically honest.   The younger, closely shaven and youthful person travelling in first class is considered a far more likely potential fare dodger than the granny type with her knitting and hornrimmed glasses.  In the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), some staff are reluctant to challenge based on age at the senior end.

What counts as off-peak? This fare (also available for 12-25s) needs no card, and works for all TERs (until last year it was also for Intercit^s trains without compulsory reservation). Most days you can use a train timed to leave 6:30-8:00 or 17:00-18:30. On Fridays the latter period becomes 14:00-20:00, on Saturday it's OK all day, and on Sunday there is one peak of 15:00-20:00. Holiday long weekends are generally made up of a "Friday", several "Saturdays", and a kind of "Sunday". Note that none of this applies to Paris (and possibly to some other big cities) where the local trains are not branded TER. The full version is here.

We can perhaps learn from this ... some of the UK stuff (like all Sunday off peak) seems perverse these day, though perhaps the crowded Sunday trains results also from a lack of provision at a very time that people want to travel.

The complexity of the British railway fares system has often been commented on here. For comparison, look at pages 8-9 (10-11 in the PDF) here. Every coloured block is a different fare type, though there are five in one block - I make I 26 in all, though there are some more variants in the detailed text.

It sounds like no-one has it simple ...

As I may have said before: if there are two quite different ways of doing the same thing, however mundane, us and the French will find them.

I found that fascinating - I hope you're OK with lots of cut-in answers (a bit late if I've overdone it!) but there's just so much that can be learned / gleaned from the comparative.   Much better to take tested ideas from elsewhere and see if they apply that to start every time from scratch ...

[stuving]

Here are a few points I can answer/add to:

There are not even any intervening SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) buses doing train imitations. So you'd expect the 9:21 to be quite busy. So we all get on ... a single-carriage TER (A TER X-73500, diesel, 79 seats). This is full by the time we get halfway, and people are struggling to stand in among the luggage (there's a lot of that) well before Nantes.

And are tickets interchangeable between buses and trains if people DO end up on a bus?   I don't (yet) recognise our 10:04 as being packed, and the luggage is not such an issue.   Do people in France make longer distance journeys on this train (in which case the lots of luggage and less peaky peak is what I would expect) or are there other nationalistic differences?.

I'm referring to the buses that appear in railway timetables and on departure boards as "CAR", and operate those services not expected to get enough passengers to warrant running a "banana" (TER X-73500). At least that's what I assume. Usually they are slower; here the trains are so slow there's no difference. Looking closer, some are indicated as "autocar TER Pays de la Loire. Tarification SNCF. ", i.e. run by SNCF on exactly that basis of (through) ticketing as a train; some are "autocar regional. Tarif personnel et ayants-droit SNCF non applicable.", which means the same for real passengers, but they do not accept SNCF staff travel concessions.

This was the first official day of the summer holidays, so there were extra going-away journeys (though most such passengers were way past school age.) And of course St Gilles is a holiday town as well, though that traffic would be at other times.

What seems to happen is that train sizes are decided by the up services into Nantes, not the down ones. The last four down trains stay overnight, and need to be put in their two platforms so as to come out in reverse order. In the past I have been on a very crowded last down train, for which the next up working is scarily early (4:41) so only needs one carriage.

Are you sure the 04:41 is quiet?  I've been surprised at the busyness of certain very early morning trains ... but I will grant that things like the 05:24 (?) Westbury to Salisbury tends to be an ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) in passenger service. 

 

I have no personal knowledge of the 4:41 - which in fact only runs on Mondays, presumably for weekly commuters or weekenders going back to Paris. Usually the first train is the 5:28, but I have no personal knowledge of that either.

In fact there are three platforms, and enough length that the Chinese puzzle ought not to be a big issue. They just seem to have got hung up on this particular operational factor to the exclusion of being flexible. My guess is that it is to do with who is allowed to decide what within the hierarchy: a bigger train needs the boss's say-so.

What counts as off-peak? This fare (also available for 12-25s) needs no card, and works for all TERs (until last year it was also for Intercit^s trains without compulsory reservation). Most days you can use a train timed to leave 6:30-8:00 or 17:00-18:30. On Fridays the latter period becomes 14:00-20:00, on Saturday it's OK all day, and on Sunday there is one peak of 15:00-20:00. Holiday long weekends are generally made up of a "Friday", several "Saturdays", and a kind of "Sunday". Note that none of this applies to Paris (and possibly to some other big cities) where the local trains are not branded TER. The full version is here.

We can perhaps learn from this ... some of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) stuff (like all Sunday off peak) seems perverse these day, though perhaps the crowded Sunday trains results also from a lack of provision at a very time that people want to travel.

The complexity of the British railway fares system has often been commented on here. For comparison, look at pages 8-9 (10-11 in the PDF) here. Every coloured block is a different fare type, though there are five in one block - I make I 26 in all, though there are some more variants in the detailed text.

It sounds like no-one has it simple ...

Apparently the state-mandated "large family" discount fares can be very hard to find on-line, which is where most TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) tickets get sold. One point to make about commuting peak times is that travel to work is generally subsidised - here that's the "Pratik" fare. Your employer is expected/coerced to pay about half, and what's left is capped at ^1 per journey (^45 per month)! You have to live in the region (Pays de la Loire) with limited application if you work in neighbouring regions. But note again this applies in Nantes (more comparable to Bristol) not Paris.

As I may have said before: if there are two quite different ways of doing the same thing, however mundane, us and the French will find them.

I found that fascinating - I hope you're OK with lots of cut-in answers (a bit late if I've overdone it!) but there's just so much that can be learned / gleaned from the comparative.   Much better to take tested ideas from elsewhere and see if they apply that to start every time from scratch ...

Come to think of it, I may have some stuff about railways in these parts from last year I never posted; I'll have a look.

One final point - the regional guide (linked to above) on page 5 shows the main financial numbers for (essentially)  the TERs - revenue 32% from ticket sales, 68% from the region. There is a plan to redraw the regional map, but as it is now that leaves Pays de la Loire alone. That was a surprise, since reattaching Nantes to Brittany has been the object of a campaign for some time. Of course if you did that you would have both Nantes and Rennes (similar sizes) vying for dominance, and I suspect that's why Loire Atlantique was kept out of the Brittany region. The (far-fetched) idea is to save money, but really if you want to cut the regions' budgets you have to reduce its big-ticket items like - for example - transport.