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Author Topic: Birmingham teenager with dwarfism 'barred from buses'  (Read 6435 times)
Chris from Nailsea
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« on: July 24, 2014, 22:28:22 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Quote
Birmingham teenager with dwarfism 'barred from buses'


Kain Francis said when he walks, he has to stop "every couple of minutes or so"

A boy with a form of dwarfism says he has been barred from buses five times in a fortnight in a row over his bike.

Kain Francis, 17, from Kingstanding, Birmingham, said the bike was a "lifeline" to a social life as he did not have "much stamina" to walk.

Kain, who is 3ft 5in (1.04m) tall, said one driver asked him for proof he was disabled.

National Express West Midlands said it would issue Kain a letter to show on buses to allow him on with his bike.

Kain said he was not allowed on buses in Sutton Coldfield, Kingstanding and Birmingham city centre with the bike, leaving him "pretty disgusted", annoyed and "stressed".

Kain said he told one driver the bike was "my wheelchair". He said: "I use my bike to get around everywhere... My bike's a lot smaller than any of the other usual bikes. It's embarrassing when you have to get on the bus and then get off the bus. It's awkward, almost like you're holding up the whole bus."


Kain Francis said he was not allowed on buses with his bike four times in less than 24 hours

His mother, Luan Cridland, 43, said she was "completely irate" when Kain told her one driver asked for proof he was disabled.

Miss Cridland said: "He's a good lad. He doesn't need people looking at him like he's some sort of freak show."

A National Express West Midlands spokesman said bikes were not allowed on buses for health and safety reasons. "The area where bikes would go is already a well-used space with buggies and pushchairs which get priority," he said.

He apologised "for any offence, stress or inconvenience caused to Kain" and said it would issue him with a letter confirming he had access to the company's buses.

Kain said the promise of the letter, which he has not yet received, was "reassuring".
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 22:46:35 »

What an interesting story. With a scenario that falls very much into a grey area.

Bicycles of any sort would normally not be permitted on a bus, as NatEX WM say. But someone with legally protected characteristics (as per the Equality Act 2010) using a small bike to aid mobility...

Just goes to show that physical disability doesn't have to mean wheelchair.

Well done to NatEx West Midlands for their apology and for issuing the letter. However, better staff training for their drivers to reflect the Equality Act 2010 should perhaps also be considered. Also, I'd take issue with their statement that buggies get priority in the available space. Someone with legally protected characteristics using a small bicycle because of their disability should have priority over a buggy.

Ultimately, nobody with legally protected characteristics should be asked to 'prove' they are disabled.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2014, 09:15:36 »

Agrred - my question would be over "stamina"

Surely, you need as much to cycle places as you do to walk.....
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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 09:19:52 »

I'm not sure whether its stamina or not but I can cycle 60 miles in a day, but I cant walk anywhere near that far. I imagine this young lad is the same but for my smaller proportionate distances.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 09:27:07 »

I'm not sure whether its stamina or not but I can cycle 60 miles in a day, but I cant walk anywhere near that far. I imagine this young lad is the same but for my smaller proportionate distances.

Quite so. When you walk, you carry your own weight; when you cycle that's only an issue when going uphill - and then you get all that potential energy back when you go down the other side.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 09:31:01 »

You still have to turn the pedals.....

Everyone can go further on a bike than walking?....
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 09:42:53 »

You still have to turn the pedals.....

Everyone can go further on a bike than walking?....

Other things being equal, yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_advantage
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stuving
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 09:56:25 »

[Quite so. When you walk, you carry your own weight; when you cycle that's only an issue when going uphill - and then you get all that potential energy back when you go down the other side.

Or you take the bus up the hill ...
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thetrout
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 14:03:46 »

Ultimately, nobody with legally protected characteristics should be asked to 'prove' they are disabled.

I agree. Infact such things are defined ]to the best of my knowledge] as frowned upon under the Equality Act and Disability Discrimination Act.

It's a shame this young lad has had all this trouble. I am also in agreement that if the pushchair space is empty before he boards the bus; he should get priority to use that space. If the driver were to say "I might have a pushchair that may need to get on 5 stops up" I would say that is unfair and unreasonable. A perfect counter argument to this for someone who may find themselves in such a situation is simple: "You also may not have a pushchair that needs to get on 5 stops up"

Unfortunately even in 2014, some establishments don't quite seem to understand the EA/DDA» (Disability Discrimination Act - about). Take Madam Tussauds in London for example:

Quote from: Madam Tussauds Website
One helper is welcome without charge to our attraction. We require documentary proof of disability i.e.

  • Entitlement to Disability Living Allowance for children under 16 or Personal Independent payments for those aged 16-64, either in the form of a letter stating that the benefit has been awarded, or the actual Allowance book
  • Attendance Allowance or Carer's Allowance letter of award
  • Incapacity Benefit books, or a letter notifying the recipient that the benefit has been awarded
  • A Blue or Orange badge
  • In the case of visual impairment, a registration card known as the BD8 or a Certificate of Visual Impairment (CVI).

http://www.madametussauds.com/London/PlanYourVisit/DisabledAccess/Default.aspx

Playing Devils Advocate; that almost implies the following interpretation: "We'll let you bring someone in for free if you can prove you're disabled"

Perhaps I am being too blunt or harsh there. But to require such paperwork as mentioned above I personally feel is unfair. In my experience, showing my Disabled Railcard works. I've never had that fail me yet at Longleat which gets myself+1 in for half price. (Hallucinatory voices do not require tickets Tongue )

If someone arrived at an attraction in a Wheelchair, was clearly using a mobility aid or had an assistance dog. You'd really hope that common sense would prevail and they wouldn't be asked for extra proof.

But the positive thing here is that NXWM have responded well by agreeing to provide a letter to give to drivers. However they were always going to be in a very difficult position here.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 14:37:09 »

Agreed, not only because he didn't *need* his bike in order for him to get around. He *could* walk, just not for miles (devils advocate might say that's what the bus is for)....unlike a wheelchair which, in my experience is only used if unable to walk more than a few steps or not at all.

But where does this finally stop? electric bike/trike / electric buggy? Battery life on these won't get you many miles....it is a difficult one.
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John R
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2014, 10:50:37 »


I agree. Infact such things are defined ]to the best of my knowledge] as frowned upon under the Equality Act and Disability Discrimination Act.

Unfortunately even in 2014, some establishments don't quite seem to understand the EA/DDA» (Disability Discrimination Act - about). Take Madam Tussauds in London for example:

Quote from: Madam Tussauds Website
One helper is welcome without charge to our attraction. We require documentary proof of disability i.e.


How can an act "frown on something". They are normally quite black and white in explaining what is required, particularly if accompanied by regulations.

I suspect there isn't any legal obligation on Madame Tussauds to admit someone free of charge, so I guess they can set a higher standard of proof of disability, to ensure that people don't abuse the concession of admitting someone free. 

As a general rule, if someone's disability is not immediately apparent, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me for a provider of a service to require some evidence (provided it is requested in a way which is not embarrassing or demeaning for the individual concerned), before providing whatever adaption to the normal service is required. In the case in point, otherwise what would now stop every teenager trying to take a bike on board a bus and saying "I'm disabled, can't walk more than 20 metres". 

This might be particularly true when the extent to which the provision for the disability could be seen to confer an advantage over the normal service provided. Here's an example. A family of 4 turns up at Alton Towers, and states that one of the children is disabled to the extent that they cannot walk or stand for more than 10 minutes without difficulty. There is no obvious sign of this disability. Does the Theme Park agree to put them to the front of each queue, and if so, do they ask for some proof of the disability before doing so, as this adjustment to the normal service would confer a large advantage to the family? This isn't a hypothetical example by the way, I know a family where this is the case, and they turned up prepared with evidence.   
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thetrout
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 23:03:47 »

How can an act "frown on something". They are normally quite black and white in explaining what is required, particularly if accompanied by regulations.

My style of wording there. You are correct in the Act can be black and white. But it can also be down to interpretation of said act which is what I was trying to allude to.

Quote
As a general rule, if someone's disability is not immediately apparent, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me for a provider of a service to require some evidence (provided it is requested in a way which is not embarrassing or demeaning for the individual concerned), before providing whatever adaption to the normal service is required.

And my emphasis in Bold is exactly what I was getting at. I can think of many examples where someone might take offence to this of find such a question embarrassing. It is worth remembering that those with Anxiety or perhaps ASD's could find such a question difficult to deal with. Personal Disabilities to one side I know for fact that some would rather pay the full price for something they are entitled to at a lesser cost, because of the stress it causes them on being required to "prove it"

That being said I have attended 2 different chain aquarium locations in the UK (United Kingdom). One issued the concessionary ticket without any proof being required on a good faith basis. The other however took the line despite proof that and I quote: I wasn't disabled enough

This poked a very sore nerve and a very interesting debate ensued to this one. Because what gives someone the right to pass judgement on someone they've made eye contact with for all of 90 seconds? My personal view is no right whatsoever. Whilst the staff member in question may have a relative who has a severe disability. It does not excuse someone from saying the above in the manner they did. Disability can be a very sore subject for some. For example: Epilepsy, Autism, Involuntary Incontinence, Diabetes, Crohns Disease, Schizophrenia, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder etc are all predominately hidden disabilities. To say "You aren't disabled enough" some may find flattering. But if you struggle day in and day out with any of the above, then such a comment can seriously upset someone. For me at the time, having 5 of those listed above, it made me rather angry. I am an open book on my problems but I know others are not.

In the end I was given the discount and a future free entry after the manager came down to resolve the situation. Fortuitously, 2 members of the public (who I had never met before) chimed into the conversation to confirm the staff member did in fact say what she did as per my quote. With now 4 people saying to the manager what was said + 2 third party bystanders it was clear that the manager and his colleague had some explaining to do.

I also received a written apology from the centre. However my personal view is that it should never have happened in the first place. Needless to say I probably won't be in a hurry to visit that particular centre any time soon!

Quote
In the case in point, otherwise what would now stop every teenager trying to take a bike on board a bus and saying "I'm disabled, can't walk more than 20 metres". 

If the teenager boarded with a ENCTS (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) Pass then benefit of the doubt perhaps on that one? If a Young Person has an ENCTS Card then they don't have it because they're over 60 put it that way... The bus company in the case point however is making it easier for the young chap in question by removing the element of a debate on what is a walking aid. That is my understanding of it however.

Quote
This might be particularly true when the extent to which the provision for the disability could be seen to confer an advantage over the normal service provided. Here's an example. A family of 4 turns up at Alton Towers, and states that one of the children is disabled to the extent that they cannot walk or stand for more than 10 minutes without difficulty. There is no obvious sign of this disability. Does the Theme Park agree to put them to the front of each queue, and if so, do they ask for some proof of the disability before doing so, as this adjustment to the normal service would confer a large advantage to the family? This isn't a hypothetical example by the way, I know a family where this is the case, and they turned up prepared with evidence.  

I've done something to this degree at Alton Towers too. Where the queues for some rides were in excess of 60 minutes. At the time of the visit I had to use the bathroom approximately every 60 minutes (and today still occasionally have to do so) which would always lose my place in the queue. So I would never be able to get on any rides. Again in good faith I was willing to prove this but no proof was ever required.

This is always going to be a difficult problem. I personally feel that if someone says they require that entry then it should be issued on good faith. The way I try and do it nowadays is offer the proof before asking for the product. Because it removes the element for a dispute OR, more importantly, the anxiety on the staff member on how exactly to ask for the proof. However there are those who will abuse the system. However I think to knowingly ask for a concessionary product without entitlement is a rather low thing to do on it's own.

Also, nothing personal in the above and no offence taken. I have friends with disabilities to various degrees so I always try and take a broader sense of the subject in such a discussion Smiley

I am going to pass comment on this in an existing thread in Frequent Posters soon; after something I witnessed on the train yesterday... You may already see where I am going with this one Sad Lips sealed
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Phil
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 10:25:07 »

Personal Disabilities to one side I know for fact that some would rather pay the full price for something they are entitled to at a lesser cost, because of the stress it causes them on being required to "prove it"

I have to say, that's not the only reason.

I often pay the full price for things, despite having a disability, because I'd personally feel fraudulent otherwise. It's all about fairness and value for money for me.

Purely as an example, let's say someone's hobby turns into a business. They've received an inheritence or won the Lottery or something. They love marine life and decide to build an aquarium. Because it's new build,  it adheres to all current legislation. Maybe the owner has a disability herself so she's uniquely aware of the potential problems. There's full wheelchair and electric buggy access throughout. Wide well-lit aisles so that everyone can peer into the huge glass tanks alongside them, and two wheelchairs can pass if necessary. Sunken pools with viewing galleries so everyone can enjoy the sharks being fed, and not have to stand on tiptoe on a ledge to peer in. There's a full range of toilet facilities every 100 yards. Herring induction loops (the aquarium's own take on hearing loops) are fitted throughout. Soft furnishings and no sharp edges. The works.

By now, the money's run out, so it needs to be a viable business. Luckily visitor numbers are on the rise, because it's a well presented and well run destination (and great for people of all abilities)

So up I rock with my hidden disability. Is my disability going to mean my enjoyment of what's on offer is in any way impaired? Not in the slightest, no. Have the owners obviously gone out of their way to cater for everyone? Emphatically, yes. I had to park over a mile away because there's so many (largely empty) disabled spaces near the entrance. So.... do I demand a discount?

In this case, no. I don't. I'm happy to pay full price because it's worth it to me, and because the facility deserves my support so that others can enjoy it as well.
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