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Author Topic: Gatwick Express or not Gatwick Express?  (Read 4079 times)
bignosemac
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« on: September 03, 2014, 11:23:57 pm »

Moderator note: This discussion has been split from the topic Service Suspension Guildford-Redhill

I wonder whether tickets were being accepted on Gatwick Express? That option wouldn't allow for a change at Clapham Junction.

It wasn't listed, isn't in the current vaguer wording:
Quote
South West Trains, Southern Railway and London Underground are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice. Arrangements have been made for First Great Western rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.
and would be unusual, wouldn't it?

Ahh, but we all know Gatwick Express is part of Southern Railway. Except when it isn't.  Tongue Wink Grin
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 04:43:29 pm by bignosemac » Logged

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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 11:58:17 pm »

I wonder whether tickets were being accepted on Gatwick Express? That option wouldn't allow for a change at Clapham Junction.

It wasn't listed, isn't in the current vaguer wording:
Quote
South West Trains, Southern Railway and London Underground are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice. Arrangements have been made for First Great Western rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.
and would be unusual, wouldn't it?

Ahh, but we all know Gatwick Express is part of Southern Railway. Except when it isn't.  Tongue Wink Grin

Has anyone made a definitive guide of what scenarios it is and when it isn't part of Southern?
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thetrout
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 06:27:40 am »

Has anyone made a definitive guide of what scenarios it is and when it isn't part of Southern?

Going well off topic. But I have a personal experience on this after some research and concluded some rather interesting discussions. On the occasion in question I used a "SOUTHERN ONLY" ticket on a Gatwick Express service and was told by RPI it wasn't valid. An interesting argument started over the NRCoC which states a "Train Company" and not "Brand Name"

Whilst this may be a moot and pedantic point, it actually isn't. Looking at Gatwick Express' Website it's very clear to me from some wording hidden in the footer notes as follows:

Quote
^ Gatwick Express is operated by Southern
Southern Railway Ltd is registered in England No. 06574965

With the emphasis in bold. It's operated by Southern Railway... So "SOUTHERN ONLY" tickets should be valid as Gatwick Express is merely a copyrighted trademark/brand name and not a separate Train Operating Company with a Company Registration Number... Roll Eyes

Write a strongly worded letter to Southern if you get charged an Excess by Gatwick Express... They refund you in cash every time it happens!
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stuving
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 08:47:05 am »

I must admit I thought GX was a branding, but treated as a theoretical TOC to make this ticket restriction work. However, it's not listed as one. (I assume it was when there was a separate franchise.)

The more you think about this, the less sense it makes. Premium pricing for an express service, with or without other features, is hardly unusual: now or in the past, here or elsewhere. It doesn't have anything to do with separate companies, so why is that what NRCOC says? If you do want to indicate the operator, shouldn't that be the franchise not the company? I'm sure there are some instances where a company has two franchises but needs to operate them separately, if only for part of their duration.

Mind you, the fact that NRCOC does not mention train restrictions apart from by TOC may not exclude the possibility. Nor does a statement that a TOC is accepting tickets need to mean that applies on all of their trains. And in any case, is going via CLJ/WAT/VIC/CLJ really a "reasonable route"?
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SDS
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 10:24:15 am »

Easy way to change it.
Make the routing NOT GAT EXP as already exsists on some flows.
However as I understand it. GX as a brand is dissapearing soon, GX as a TOC went long ago.
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paul7755
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 11:43:08 am »


However as I understand it. GX as a brand is dissapearing soon, GX as a TOC went long ago.

Not as far as I can see.  The new franchisees 'GoVia Thameslink Rail' have shown in their presentation here (on page 3):

http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1222/GTR%20franchise%20presentation.pdf

... that there will still be four customer brands, i.e. Southern, Gatwick Express, Thameslink, and Great Northern.  Only the latter two are getting new logos/brands.  However what they have been told to do in the franchise spec is remove the separate SN and FCC fares on the routes between Brighton and London.

Under the existing situation the problem with changing the 'Southern Only' fares to 'Not Gat Exp' is that they would then also become available on GW and FCC, which presumably wasn't the intention of your solution?

Paul
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2014, 10:16:13 pm »

SN and FC fares will prob turn into Route Thameslink Only. GN I dont believe have route specific tickets as they are lead operator and flow owner for most of their fares. There are FCC only (which will prob turn into GN Railway Only) fares from Peterborough to London but EC is the lead owner on that one.
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Network SouthEast
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2014, 08:04:53 am »


However what they have been told to do in the franchise spec is remove the separate SN and FCC fares on the routes between Brighton and London.

That isn't quite what the franchise spec says.

It has this to say:

Quote
Bidders^ attention is drawn to the regulated fares policy set out in the Franchise Agreement. Because the new TSGN franchise involves both the merger of the current FCC and Southern franchises, as well as changes to service patterns resulting from the Thameslink programme, a number of matters arise which must be considered as part of this Delivery Plan.

The current fares baskets for Southern and FCC will continue to be used for fares regulation until the combined franchise comes into effect. New fares baskets will be created so that there is only one Commuter and one Protected fares basket for the combined franchise, to be used for fares regulation from July 2015. These fares baskets will be created and made available to bidders.

Bidders shall in their Bid plans assume the continued operation of the zonal fares and pricing structure schemes currently in force on the Southern and FCC franchises. In particular Bidders will be required to continue as part of the Oyster PAYG scheme in London.

The ITT also says further on...

Quote
Bidders must propose to the Department a plan that, at a minimum, will avoid the holders of existing (FCC Only) season tickets commuting on the Brighton Mainline facing hardship due to unexpectedly sharp or unreasonable fare increases in the early years of the franchise. If such plans require the facilitation of the Department, this should be made clear in the proposal.

I couldn't find any specific references to say Southern only fares have to be abolished.

The fact that the new franchise will have four sub brands suggests to me that they may be keeping seperate fares.
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paul7755
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 10:17:38 am »

That was the section I was thinking of but will admit to greatly simplifying their intentions.  The problem is that you can't really use 'route Thameslink' either, because it is only one of the four sub brands,and there are also the rules preventing a main operator having an operator specific fare.  Then there'd be the debate about whether in future 'route Thamesink' means a branded train, or a geographic route.   

I think north of Gatwick, Gatwick express was the 'any permitted', and it is only there that 'Southern only' becomes available. (The normal arguments are all about this point, which could continue AFAICT.)

From Brighton what we call the 'Southern fare' is actually the any permitted, the FCC fare is the one they give as an example of being removed, as from next year there is no second operator on the route.

It would probably have been better for me to write about 'removing the dual pricing' leaving the existing any permitted as the only option.

Paul
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grahame
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2018, 05:11:51 pm »

The collective name for multiple brands on the same line owned by the same parent is a confusion of brands.

Gatwick Express reported in Rail Technology Magazine ruled to be making misleading claims by the Advertising Standards Authority.

   
Quote
Gatwick Express ad claim of trains to Victoria in 30 minutes ruled as ‘misleading’

An advert claim by Gatwick Express that its services can reach London Victoria in 30 minutes has been ruled as misleading by the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA).

A poster and website advert titled “Glide out of Gatwick” with smaller text stating that services run from London Gatwick Airport non-stop to Victoria in half an hour was found to be not factually correct by the advertising regulator.

[snip - explanation why]

Gatwick Express have noted that a third of services being delayed were out of control of the operator. A spokesman for Gatwick Express said: "Just a third of Gatwick Express delay minutes were within our control. However, we began withdrawing these adverts many months ago and we acknowledge the ASA ruling."

Gatwick Express is operated by GTR who also run Thameslink, Greater Northern, and Southern Rail lines.
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