MTLS Fare Strike Confirmed

[whole diary]

[vacman]

Your dead right shazz.

[Graz]

Wrong, It'll give MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) bad press, as they actively break the law to try and get there point across. Which will end up making there opinions even less credible than they currently arn't.

I disagree. It will have a very negative effect on both sides. Tim's absolutely right. The press always sympathize with the long-suffering passenger who's put up with months of misery on the rails, and of course I can see why MTLS have a very valid point. Anyone who hasn't seen the shocking decline in service since FGW^▸ (First Great Western) took over the Wessex franchise have either been living under a rock or see passengers as an irritating complaining bunch who shouldn't even be on trains(!).

As I've said before, the press and news will interview MTLS and anyone fined for evasion and have a field day throwing critisism at FGW for the poor service and why they haven't improved things or listened. Such news will no doubt make people angrier, and drive even more away from FGW trains and onto the roads. That's the last thing FGW need.

However, I can say that very recently things -have- improved, over the past few weeks or so (not taking into account the flooding). My trips back have been fine this year. I've seen fewer cancellations than before and many less severe delays, and Andrew Haines is certainly trying his best to turn things around.  I can also say that I don't personally agree with the fare strike as yes, it's illegal, and the government are equally, if not more to blame, not just FGW. AH also seems to be reversing the decline. So I won't be taking part in the 'strike' - but I will refuse to take the train that day (moreso to avoid angry, grumpy passengers and staff!)

Please everyone, try to take a balanced view.

[dog box]

Well lets hope FGW^▸ (First Great Western) take a tough line and bring in the Revenue Potection Staff,

That would only get FGW even more bad press.

As I have said before (and this isn't a personal comment on you, Dogbox, I have no idea of your union affiliation and views), I think it slightly hypocrytical of rail staff to condemn MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain)'s strike as if it was the worst crime in the world when they work in an industry that must be one of the most militant and strike-prone in the country.

RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) members have a contract to work but when they feel treated badly they consider it justified to break that contract and strike.  FGW passengers have a contract with FGW to pay for their travel but when they feel that they have been treated badly (and by any measure they are treated badly) they consider it justified to break that contract for a day.  I know this is a gross simplification and there are legal and factual differences between the two situations but I do think that their is some kind of moral equivalence. 

From a personal point of view,  anti-MTLS comments from rail staff (and I would include Dogbox in this - sorry)  gives me a negative impression of you all.  It makes me and perhaps others less sypathetic of your own battles with FGW, less likely to view your mistakes sympathetcially, more likely to moan about you and complain to FGW and less likely to give praise where it is due.  Basically, it gives me the impression that you are all heartless jobsworths.  I know that that isn't true, but it is the impression you give when I read the "I hope they all get caught and sent down" comments on this forum.

I know that lots of FGW staff feel that they don't get the respect that they deserve from the public (and they would be correct in such a view) but they must realise that respect goes both ways and lack of sympathy for the long suffering passenger will only rebound as lack of sympathy for the long suffering staff.   

BTW^▸ (by the way), I won't be taking part in the strike myself but I do admire the MTLS folk who sacrifice their own time to organise it and who run the risk of prosecution to make a political point. 

Sorry mate but i cannot really see how not supporting a group who intend ON breaking the law is going to make me a  heartless jobsworth.
Put it like this if i worked for Tescos and the price of milk went up to ^1 a pint and i was on the check out would i say to the shopper who complained yeah i totally agree with you and you take it on for nothing.
The bottom line is if you think the price of milk is too expensive you wont buy it ,everything is going up at the moment Utility bills, council tax { do you get a better service from them every year?}.
I do realise Rail travel is prehaps the only option for some people, but overcrowding and fare increases are not just something thats limited to fgw land.
As i have said on another post if the energy and passion put into moaning complaining  and organising fare strikes was chanelled into working together to improve our local rail services prehaps we may be able to move forward .
Other regions seem to be able to do it and get results because if we dont shout loud enough now precious few of the governments 1300 new carriages will be comming our way!!

[Tim]

Well lets hope FGW^▸ (First Great Western) take a tough line and bring in the Revenue Potection Staff,

Other regions seem to be able to do it and get results because if we dont shout loud enough now precious few of the governments 1300 new carriages will be comming our way!!

But doesn't the Press coverage that MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) generates contribute to the shouting that is needed if we are going to get some of the new vehicles down here in the SW?  Whatever the rights or wrongs of the fare strike it will give the government the true impression that SW Commuters are angry with their train service.  Is that not a good thing?

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the fare strike I would re-make the following points:

1) In any press coverage of the strike or any subsequnt prosecution for fare evasion, FGW will come off badly.  This may well be unfair but it is what will happen.  The press loves knocking the TOCS and will always side with the "average passenger" (even if they are a criminal).

2) My prediction is that very few if any people will actually not have a ticket but that a large number of people will show a fake ticket (I know that this in itself is an offense) and that after warnings from staff and gentle threats of prosecution and/or penalty fares the correct ticket will be shown and the matter will go no further.  This would seem to be the most satisfactory conclusion all round.  The fare gets paid, no revenue is lost, the commuter gets to make his valid point about high prices and poor service and the relationship between customer and staff is not soured anymore than it needs to be.  If the transaction involves good humour on both sides then so much the better.

If you will excuse the diversion, I'll give you a little bot of background as to why I think I find the anti-MTLS commenst of staff so distasteful...

I was a teenager in Rosyth in Fife and remember the miners' strike very well.  I was not involved in the dispute myself nor was my family but I remember donating tins of food to the miners and my parents talking to friends who worked in the pits and seeing and hearing about the scuffles on the picket lines, the vandalism to the road haulier's lorries (used to transport the coal because the Railwaymen where refusing to move it) and the action of the Police.  Looking back on the dispute years later, I have to say that both sides behaved badly at times, but I remember the hatred that the miners had for the Police Officers who were drafted in from outside the area (from places like London) as opposed to those who were from the local force.  Both sets of Police enforced the law (and there were certainly some actions of the miners that were illegal (regardless of whether you think that they were morally justified)), but whereas by and large the local cops did it in a sympathetic way, the lads from the Met where over-fueled on testosterone, overpaid (on overtime) and lacked a sensititivity of the issues.   They were champing at the bit to set about some miners and teach them a lesson they wouldn't forget.  Until the strike I had always assumed that the Police woudl always be on my side but what I heard from the miners changed my view of the Police and especially the Metropolitant Police.  Twenty years later I am a law-abiding professional living in Bath and I know that the Police are almost all brave hardworking people trying to make a difference, but deep-down I still harbour an anti-Police streak so that when I heard that Met Officers had shot a Brazillian in Stockwell, I surprise myself by not thinking "tragic accident", but by my first thought being, "trigger-happy thugs".   

I am not trying to equate Tony Ambrose to Arthur Scargill, or officious RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) with trigger-happy Policemen but I would draw two comparisons:

1) It is distasteful when people visibly gloat and openly enjoy the power that they have over others whether it is Policemen waving ^20 notes at miners on the picket line or FGW staff making comments about dusting off their penalty fares notebooks.  This comment applies regardless of whether that power is legitimate or illegitimate.

2) You can be a decent, tolerant person but if you or someone else wearing the same uniform acts in the distasteful way described above, the sour taste left in the public's mouth can last for years and can rebound on you.

[vacman]

Your entitled to your opinion, and so am I, my position hasn't changed, I will lose no sleep about reporting someone who BREAKS THE LAW!

[ruthg]

Well lets hope FGW^▸ (First Great Western) take a tough line and bring in the Revenue Potection Staff,

That would only get FGW even more bad press.

As I have said before (and this isn't a personal comment on you, Dogbox, I have no idea of your union affiliation and views), I think it slightly hypocrytical of rail staff to condemn MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain)'s strike as if it was the worst crime in the world when they work in an industry that must be one of the most militant and strike-prone in the country.

RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) members have a contract to work but when they feel treated badly they consider it justified to break that contract and strike.  FGW passengers have a contract with FGW to pay for their travel but when they feel that they have been treated badly (and by any measure they are treated badly) they consider it justified to break that contract for a day.  I know this is a gross simplification and there are legal and factual differences between the two situations but I do think that their is some kind of moral equivalence. 

From a personal point of view,  anti-MTLS comments from rail staff (and I would include Dogbox in this - sorry)  gives me a negative impression of you all.  It makes me and perhaps others less sypathetic of your own battles with FGW, less likely to view your mistakes sympathetcially, more likely to moan about you and complain to FGW and less likely to give praise where it is due.  Basically, it gives me the impression that you are all heartless jobsworths.  I know that that isn't true, but it is the impression you give when I read the "I hope they all get caught and sent down" comments on this forum.

I know that lots of FGW staff feel that they don't get the respect that they deserve from the public (and they would be correct in such a view) but they must realise that respect goes both ways and lack of sympathy for the long suffering passenger will only rebound as lack of sympathy for the long suffering staff.   

BTW^▸ (by the way), I won't be taking part in the strike myself but I do admire the MTLS folk who sacrifice their own time to organise it and who run the risk of prosecution to make a political point. 

Sorry mate but i cannot really see how not supporting a group who intend ON breaking the law is going to make me a  heartless jobsworth.
Put it like this if i worked for Tescos and the price of milk went up to ^1 a pint and i was on the check out would i say to the shopper who complained yeah i totally agree with you and you take it on for nothing.
The bottom line is if you think the price of milk is too expensive you wont buy it ,everything is going up at the moment Utility bills, council tax { do you get a better service from them every year?}.
I do realise Rail travel is prehaps the only option for some people, but overcrowding and fare increases are not just something thats limited to fgw land.
As i have said on another post if the energy and passion put into moaning complaining  and organising fare strikes was chanelled into working together to improve our local rail services prehaps we may be able to move forward .
Other regions seem to be able to do it and get results because if we dont shout loud enough now precious few of the governments 1300 new carriages will be comming our way!!

As for the price of milk, perhaps you remember the milk price fixing scandal at the end of last year for which the big supermarkets have been fined ^116 million by the Office of Fair Trading. Just because prices are going up everywhere it doesn't make it right, fair, or on this occasion lawful.
I'm just glad there are people out there willing to make a noise about it rather than rolling over and just accepting whatever these companies throw at us.

[Chris from Nailsea]

My prediction is that very few if any people will actually not have a ticket but that a large number of people will show a fake ticket (I know that this in itself is an offense) and that after warnings from staff and gentle threats of prosecution and/or penalty fares the correct ticket will be shown and the matter will go no further.  This would seem to be the most satisfactory conclusion all round.  The fare gets paid, no revenue is lost, the commuter gets to make his valid point about high prices and poor service and the relationship between customer and staff is not soured anymore than it needs to be.  If the transaction involves good humour on both sides then so much the better.

Personally, I'd like to think this will turn out to be the case: the point is made, but nobody gets 'hurt' - as Graz wrote earlier,

Please everyone, try to take a balanced view.

[mada]

Your entitled to your opinion, and so am I, my position hasn't changed, I will lose no sleep about reporting someone who BREAKS THE LAW!

People have no alternative and the railways should never have been privatised in the current form. How else do you suggest the public stand up to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)? Writing petitions on the PM's website which always receive stock responses? You're acting as if we're taking a leaf out of the Argentinians' book and are rioting over a few cancellations. The majority of the rolling stock, current infrastructure and staff training was paid for by the tax payers of Great Britain. How is it fair that services we rely on to get to work on time are ran by profiteering bastards who crowd us all into clapped out, poorly maintained rolling stock and charge us ridiculous amounts for the privilege? As a member of FGW staff I thought you would be the first to sympathise seeing as if appropriate services were provided you and your colleagues would get a great deal less flack from the travelling public. If there was a law stating that you had to go church would you follow it? What about one where you had to hop around on one leg on a Thursday? Both are clearly unfair laws but should you follow them just because they are laws? The law isn't always right and the government are very selective about which ones they enforce. If the law was enforced to the letter banks wouldn't be able to overcharge customers for going overdrawn, gangs of chavs wouldn't terrorise hard working people and the world would  be a much better place. However you would regularly be shooting at welshmen with a crossbow for penetrating the city walls. The Cardiff to Portsmouth service would certainly become interesting!

[Shazz]

Once again, he's entitled to his own opinion, so is everyone else.

Theres no need to have a go at him for it.

[mada]

Once again, he's entitled to his own opinion, so is everyone else.

Theres no need to have a go at him for it.

I'm not arguing that vacman shouldn't have an opinion. I'm just trying to understand why he is opposed to something which if it successfully provokes action should make the front line FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff have an easier time.

[Mookiemoo]

Wrong, It'll give MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain) bad press, as they actively break the law to try and get there point across. Which will end up making there opinions even less credible than they currently arn't.

I disagree. It will have a very negative effect on both sides. Tim's absolutely right. The press always sympathize with the long-suffering passenger who's put up with months of misery on the rails, and of course I can see why MTLS have a very valid point. Anyone who hasn't seen the shocking decline in service since FGW^▸ (First Great Western) took over the Wessex franchise have either been living under a rock or see passengers as an irritating complaining bunch who shouldn't even be on trains(!).

As I've said before, the press and news will interview MTLS and anyone fined for evasion and have a field day throwing critisism at FGW for the poor service and why they haven't improved things or listened. Such news will no doubt make people angrier, and drive even more away from FGW trains and onto the roads. That's the last thing FGW need.

However, I can say that very recently things -have- improved, over the past few weeks or so (not taking into account the flooding). My trips back have been fine this year. I've seen fewer cancellations than before and many less severe delays, and Andrew Haines is certainly trying his best to turn things around.  I can also say that I don't personally agree with the fare strike as yes, it's illegal, and the government are equally, if not more to blame, not just FGW. AH also seems to be reversing the decline. So I won't be taking part in the 'strike' - but I will refuse to take the train that day (moreso to avoid angry, grumpy passengers and staff!)

Please everyone, try to take a balanced view.

Maybe just maybe I can see where you are coming from

not accounting the unreliability of the 0545 WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) which is laughable...

Since the timetable change I have not ridden a turbo once

Also - as much as my post on the cotswold board this morning  ws a complaint - maybe it was an improvement

In the past, the 0655 would have set off down the single track and the delayed 0632 would have chugged along behind - probably arriving into Pad over an hour late

Today, the 0655 set off down the track and we ran fast on an alternative route to Pad.

I dont necessarily think this was sensible - but then I dont knwo what the franchise agreement says

Logically to me, the 0655 should have been cancelled and the 0632 stopped  at the 0655 stops (after all isnt that supposed to be the benefit of SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening)).  The current situation resulted in effecitvely empty stock running to reading.

BUT

At least we didnt end up with two very delayed trains........

[Shazz]

Once again, he's entitled to his own opinion, so is everyone else.

Theres no need to have a go at him for it.

I'm not arguing that vacman shouldn't have an opinion. I'm just trying to understand why he is opposed to something which if it successfully provokes action should make the front line FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff have an easier time.

Well your post came across that way IMO^▸ (in my opinion)

[mada]

Once again, he's entitled to his own opinion, so is everyone else.

Theres no need to have a go at him for it.

I'm not arguing that vacman shouldn't have an opinion. I'm just trying to understand why he is opposed to something which if it successfully provokes action should make the front line FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff have an easier time.

Well your post came across that way IMO^▸ (in my opinion)

Perhaps it did. Everything online can be interpreted in different ways because you're obviously unable to judge body language etc from a forum post. I may not agree with Vacman but I would die for his right to say/post it!

[dog box]

Mada.. you state in a post further up i quote.... poorly maintained rolling stock... can prove this with evidence? because i know a lot of lads and lasses who work bloody hard at times when nearly eveyone is asleep to keep what stock we do have going and to get you to work.
Do you actually think the trains get themselves fuelled,serviced for the days work ahead, and dont mention the clean word,  if you see the bloody mess left by Passengers day in day  it drives you to despair.
Prehaps you should get yourself to a depot open day if they run any again ever and see what actually goes on before quoting poorly maintained rolling stock because that quote to me means you think people are not doing there jobs properly.
Trains do an a lot of mileage a day, probably more than you do in your car in a week and old kit does break down so dont blame the maintainence staff they are really doing there best to give you a train to get to work on

Edit by Grahame.  This post merits its own discussion rather than getting lost in the tail of MTLS^▸ (More Train Less Strain). 

Dogbox - I have quoted you at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1483.0
ans suggest that discussions follow there.

[grahame]

Everything online can be interpreted in different ways because you're obviously unable to judge body language etc from a forum post.

Well said; I know that I have gotten myself into very deep waters because of the written word being interpretted differently to I intended.

I may not agree with Vacman but I would die for his right to say/post it!

And as one of the moderators around here, I can tell you that is very much the view we take too. Your wording is a little more colourful than we would use, and there are exceptions required by legal aspects at times.

So it may seem a little ironic for me to be following up with a suggestion that now that views have been aired and positions understood, we agreed to differ and move on.  We have a greater understanding of each other's positions, and that's no bad thing.  We have aired the arguments in public, and again that's good as it helps readers who have not posted to be informed about the various views represented here, and wider.