Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here]. Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail News GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
June 18, 2018, 08:11:41 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[108] Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion
[94] Incident at Loughborough Junction, South London. Three dead. 1...
[72] Heathfield Branch Line - freight use and campaign to restore p...
[70] Bossing The Crossing
[69] Shortage of train crews on Great Western Railway since Septemb...
[45] Windermere branch Sunday 17 June
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Poll
Question: Would you welcome new class 278 trains?  (Voting closed: December 03, 2014, 11:21:24 am)
Yes, they would be good on my line - 4 (7%)
Yes, if it meant more capacity - 16 (28.1%)
Yes, if it meant more services - 12 (21.1%)
Yes, in the right places - 15 (26.3%)
Yes, but not on my line - 4 (7%)
No - 6 (10.5%)
Total Voters: 28

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 13
  Print  
Author Topic: New trains from old?  (Read 42346 times)
John R
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 12:08:04 pm »

Given his early career was spent at English Electric I don't think you should assume that he writes from a position of ignorance on the subject.


Ford trained as a mechanical engineer with English Electric at Rugby, specialising in prime movers, and on qualification joined the head office of the company^s Traction Division. While at English Electric Traction he was seconded to the Maintenance Division, spending time at Finsbury Park and Stratford locomotive depots.
(source - Wikipedia)
Logged
chrisr_75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1019


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 12:25:51 pm »

Given his early career was spent at English Electric I don't think you should assume that he writes from a position of ignorance on the subject.


Ford trained as a mechanical engineer with English Electric at Rugby, specialising in prime movers, and on qualification joined the head office of the company^s Traction Division. While at English Electric Traction he was seconded to the Maintenance Division, spending time at Finsbury Park and Stratford locomotive depots.
(source - Wikipedia)

I wasn't making assumptions he was ignorant, merely stating my surprise that he is of that opinion given that we've had 60+ years of generally successful use of marine & road derived diesel engines in rail applications. Indeed, most of the large EE engines of the modernisation era were marine derived. Given his background with EE, it surprises me even more that he is of the opinion that there are no road derived diesel engines currently available that would be suitable for this application.
Logged
ellendune
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2864


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 10:43:02 pm »

Having read Roger Ford's articles for many years and heard the respect with which he is held within the industry I put my money on his judgement.  However, if you read the article, he does respect those involved in the project, so he does not totally dismiss the possibility that it might work. He just remains to be convinced that a transit van engine is up to the vibration that comes from steel wheel on steel rail. 
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 20558



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 02:14:05 pm »

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=40073

Quote
A rolling stock engineering firm says it has reached agreement with Transport for London to purchase surplus District Line trains, with the intention of converting them to diesel power so they can replace ageing and unpopular Pacer and Sprinter units running on many provincial lines in Britain, writes John W E Helm.
Logged

TransWilts Rail - Linking North to West and South 9 times a day. [see here]
devon_metro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5174



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2014, 06:28:12 pm »

I think i'd rather travel on a 14x than D stock!!
Logged
stuving
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3185


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2014, 07:49:23 pm »

If you want to see Vivarail's own case for the "D-train", it's here - with that Roger Ford article too.

Perhaps I should add - that's only a simple glossy web-site spiel, not the 43-page technical brochure.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 08:27:37 pm by stuving » Logged
thetrout
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2612



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2014, 06:57:38 am »

I think it's a great idea if I'm honest. Eversholt refurbished a Class 321 which I had the pleasure of traveling on a while back. The refurbishment was very well done and as a layman I would easily have thought it was a brand new train. Windows were nice and wide, lighting was good, felt alot more open and spacious.
Logged

Grin Grin Grin Grin
onthecushions
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 577


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2014, 11:13:48 am »


I think that the logic is as follows:

The lease cost per annum of a rail passenger carriage is in the range ^75k - ^150k of which about 1/3 is for capital - the rest being heavy maintenance. Thus the "rent" proper is ^25k - ^50k. If you could get this for ten years, after interest the capital value (NPV) would be ^200k - ^400k. You can buy a seviceable but scrap carriage for ^5k - ^10k. As this would be a bogie vehicle it would have a value towards the higher end. Put in ^100k  per car and you double your money or more.

Good luck to Adrian Shooter and Vivarail.

The figures are around if anyone wants to check.

OTC
Logged
Network SouthEast
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 492



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2014, 11:42:56 am »

I think that the Vivarail proposed D-Train might have a chance, but only if they can bring this to market quickly.

I think the biggest enemy of Vivarail is not their proposed technology, but time.

We're seeing a massive programme of electrification. Network Rail in their Route Studies are now outlining possible future electrification projects beyond 2019. In the next five years we are going to see a large surplus of DMU stock from the Transpennie, Thames Valley, North West, Electric Spine and Central Scotland electrification schemes.

So the D-Train will be competing against tried and tested rolling stock. Some of it (in the case of the 185s) barely a decade old.

The cost of conversion will need to be low. The leasing companies will expect a Section 54 Undertaking to spend any money financing the D-Train, and will the DfT really be in the mood for this?

Well there are currently 156 Pacers in service. So even with a large cascade and electrification there might be a need for the D-Train.

For it to work, they'll need to be able to do the conversions sooner rather than later, and the cost needs to have as short a pay back period as possible.

Logged
chrisr_75
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1019


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2014, 12:20:10 pm »

I think that the Vivarail proposed D-Train might have a chance, but only if they can bring this to market quickly.

I think the biggest enemy of Vivarail is not their proposed technology, but time.

We're seeing a massive programme of electrification. Network Rail in their Route Studies are now outlining possible future electrification projects beyond 2019. In the next five years we are going to see a large surplus of DMU stock from the Transpennie, Thames Valley, North West, Electric Spine and Central Scotland electrification schemes.

So the D-Train will be competing against tried and tested rolling stock. Some of it (in the case of the 185s) barely a decade old.

The cost of conversion will need to be low. The leasing companies will expect a Section 54 Undertaking to spend any money financing the D-Train, and will the DfT really be in the mood for this?

Well there are currently 156 Pacers in service. So even with a large cascade and electrification there might be a need for the D-Train.

For it to work, they'll need to be able to do the conversions sooner rather than later, and the cost needs to have as short a pay back period as possible.



There is, of course, the potential for these re-engineered units to be marketed internationally, which I'm sure this company will have given due consideration to if there is a limited potential lifespan in the UK.

An interesting project if it comes to fruition, and goes very much against recent trends of scrapping/exporting relatively young rolling stock rather then refurbishing or re-engineering.
Logged
Four Track, Now!
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3594


I know nothing. Really.


View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2014, 11:37:36 pm »


I think that the logic is as follows:

The lease cost per annum of a rail passenger carriage is in the range ^75k - ^150k of which about 1/3 is for capital - the rest being heavy maintenance. Thus the "rent" proper is ^25k - ^50k. If you could get this for ten years, after interest the capital value (NPV) would be ^200k - ^400k. You can buy a seviceable but scrap carriage for ^5k - ^10k. As this would be a bogie vehicle it would have a value towards the higher end. Put in ^100k  per car and you double your money or more.

Good luck to Adrian Shooter and Vivarail.

The figures are around if anyone wants to check.

OTC

I'm not even an armchair accountant, but I see the issues here through the eyes of an armchair layman. There is a parallel with aviation. Budget airlines operating in the UK - I shall not name whom I have in mind, but one came from Ireland, and the other is easy to guess - began operations with basically hand-me-down Boeing 737s. They now use the latest Airbus models, and I returned from my tan-topping sojourn to Tenerife last month on easyPeasy's (whoops! nearly gave the game away!) latest A320, only a month off the production line. These operators see the value of leasing new energy efficient aircraft, in the same way that I first bought a 15-year old Mini in 1978 and now drive a year old (bought new) Nissan. My first car did about half the mpg of my current, carried less, and necessitated me spending my weekends under the bonnet with a Haynes manual, trying to figure out what was wrong. I drove without brakes for a week, which was interesting, until I could get the piston repair kit, fit it, and bleed it. In the unlikely event of my brakes failing now, I would call the RAC (complimentary), have the car towed to my local dealer, and have the fault repaired under warranty, FOC.

Like RyanAir any Irish airline would do. Cheap is not necessarily the least expensive, and your accountant will tell a pretty story to suit the taxman, your investors, and the missus if need be.
Logged

Now, please!
bignosemac
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 15556


Question everything.


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2014, 12:24:31 am »

Say what you like about mpg, but spending a Sunday under the bonnet of a BMC Mini, referring back and forth to a Haynes Manual, is far more enjoyable than T-cutting a Nissan Micra.

Did both recently. Gettng the Mini to splutter into life was far more enjoyable than being able to see my reflection in the bonnet of Mum's Micra.

Sorry, I digress. D stock with strap on Diesels on the national network? No thanks.
Logged

Former FGW/GWR regular passenger. No more. Despicable company.
Tim
TransWilts Member
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2722


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2014, 11:06:48 am »



Sorry, I digress. D stock with strap on Diesels on the national network? No thanks.

I agree.  And I don't buy the economics here either.  I understand is that their is a reluctance to invest in diesel units because future electrification might make them redundant before their full life, but if the economics make sense for converting D-stock to diesel, then the economics ought to make sense for converting a diesel to electric mid-way through its life.   
Logged
Four Track, Now!
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3594


I know nothing. Really.


View Profile Email
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2014, 03:22:38 pm »

Say what you like about mpg, but spending a Sunday under the bonnet of a BMC Mini, referring back and forth to a Haynes Manual, is far more enjoyable than T-cutting a Nissan Micra.


The difference is between hobby and necessity.
Logged

Now, please!
Surrey 455
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 587


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2014, 10:59:24 am »

Budget airlines operating in the UK - I shall not name whom I have in mind, but one came from Ireland, and the other is easy to guess - began operations with basically hand-me-down Boeing 737s. They now use the latest Airbus models......

easyJet exclusively use Airbus planes, Ryanair exclusively use Boeing planes. By sticking to one manufacturer their maintenance costs are lower apparently.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 13
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants