Stagecoach launch Gloucester - North Bristol express service

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

Just seen this posted on Facebook:

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/Belles%20Express.aspx

Timetable has been attached.  Hopefully we will see this developed and extended to Bristol city centre. I believe stagecoach will be using coaches which were formally used on the Oxford - Cambridge X5

[chuffed]

A leaflet offering a free day return journey until May 31st is available from Stagecoach West. However bus passes are not valid as it is a commercial service not registered with the council. Pass holders can purchase day return a ticket for ^6 offering a ^2 discount on the standard adult return fare. I contacted Stagecoach by email yesterday and had 2 replies within half an hour , and my vouchers delivered by first class post this morning. Contrast that with emails to First in Southampton , where you are lucky even to get an acknowledgement within 3 MONTHS ! Perhaps someone from First Bus would like to comment.....

[stuving]

However bus passes are not valid as it is a commercial service not registered with the council.

I don't think so. The statutory (ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme)) bus pass is meant to cover everything you'd normally call a "local bus service", and the somewhat arcane wording of the regulations defining an "eligible service" do appear to say that. Being commercial, or to what extent, doesn't come into it.

[rogerw]

I would imagine that, as it runs non-stop from the Gloucester suburbs to N Bristol it is probably not registered as a local bus service, i.e it is akin to National Express services.  In that case bus passes will not be eligible as it does not meet the criteria

[stuving]

It is true that the regulations defining "an eligible service" (SI 2002 No. 1016 and SI 2009 No. 575) do refer to "a local service", with conditions. So you'd expect there to be a definition of "a local service", or of a mechanism for deciding what is one. But no, there isn't. It seems that the difference in practice is that if seats are reserved in advance it's long-distance, otherwise it's local.

[chuffed]

This is my reply from Stagecoach West :

The reason for not being able to use your English Concessionary Travel Pass on the Belles Express is that it is a wholly commercial service run by us and is not registered with the council.  With council registered services, we are able to claim back the Concessionary fares but are unable to do so with the Belles Express.  As mentioned previously, by showing your pass, you can buy a concessionary fare, which is ^4 for a single and ^6 for a return.

[stuving]

Which is all very interesting, but does not appear to have anything to do with what the law says on this. Since the concession is a mandatory, introduced by statute, what that says - as well as all the regulations adding the details - ought to be definitive. But there have been several successive acts and orders, so the lack of any consolidated text makes it very hard to give a definitive answer.

You also might think (I did) that there would be some simple guidance on "what buses does it work on". What I can see suggests that's not a problem, e.g. for Wokingham:

Where and when can I use my bus pass?

With your free bus pass you can travel for free:

On any bus in England from 9.30am to 10.59pm, 7 days a week, including Bank Holidays
On park and ride services
On Dial-a-Ride services (such as Readibus and Keep Mobile - visit the Readibus website or Keep Mobile website for more details
On voluntary community transport schemes (for doctor or hospital visits only)

But surely that's too sweeping, as I know there are some exceptions - such as long-distance services. But that needs a definition, too.

So the best I can say is that I can find nothing in the law that would make registration with a local council (in whatever capacity) relevant to whether an operator must give fee travel to holders of a pass.

[81F]

As far as I understand it, Oxfordshire passengers with Old Gits cards can use London express services as far as Lewknor Turn but no further. Don't know how this hybrid solution was arrived at.

[grahame]

As far as I understand it, Oxfordshire passengers with Old Gits cards can use London express services as far as Lewknor Turn but no further. Don't know how this hybrid solution was arrived at.

Not an uncommon situation.   The National Express route 402 (Frome to London) is regarded as a local service and accepts cards (subject to time of day) from Frome as far as (I think) Newbury, but not beyond there.   However, the "time of day" limits mean that only westbound journeys may be made Monday to Friday, as the eastbound bus runs too early.  And it's subject to there being unbooked space when it turns up ...

Another varient (discussed at last night's Bath Bus User Group) has people able to use certain service on cards/concessions/specials to Kellards - a stop in the green and pleasant land between Batheaston (in BaNES) and Box (in Wiltshire).

[chuffed]

The boundary lines of what 'free' travel is/was permitted, have become increasingly blurred in recent years. In the last six months, a whole raft of services in popular holiday area in the south west have become 'no go' areas for ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) pass holders. On the other hand some companies on some routes. are allowing pass holders to travel at reduced rates before 9am. I fear that any attempt to tidy things up, will result in a distinct shift towards the interests of the companies providing the services, to the detriment of the pass holders.

[ChrisB]

I'm sure there is a definition - the distance between stops. Can't remember the details, but it's definitely whether it's a 'local' service or a 'long distance express'

[stuving]

There is a definition of "local service" in the Transport Act 1985, which is the one about Traffic Commissioners and registration of local bus services. The key bit (which appears never to have been amended since) is section 2:

Meaning of ^local service^

2 Local services.

(1)In this Act ^local service^ means a service, using one or more public service vehicles, for the carriage of passengers by road at separate fares other than one^
   (a)which is excluded by subsection (4) below; or
   (b)in relation to which (except in an emergency) one or both of the conditions mentioned in subsection (2)    below are met with respect to every passenger using the service.
(2)The conditions are that^
   (a)the place where he is set down is fifteen miles or more, measured in a straight line, from the place where he was taken up;
   (b)some point on the route between those places is fifteen miles or more, measured in a straight line, from either of those places.
(3)Where a service consists of one or more parts with respect to which one or both of the conditions are met, and one or more parts with respect to which neither of them is met, each of those parts shall be treated as a separate service for the purposes of subsection (1) above.
(4)A service shall not be regarded for the purposes of this Act as a local service if^
   (a)the conditions set out in Part III of Schedule 1 to the 1981 Act (trips organised privately by persons acting independently of vehicle operators, etc.) are met in respect of each journey made by the vehicles used in providing the service; or
   (b)every vehicle used in providing the service is so used under a permit granted under section 19 of this Act.
(5)Subsections (5)(b), (c) and (6) of section 1 of the 1981 Act (meaning of ^fares^) shall apply for the purposes of this section.

That suggests that either passenger have to be prevented from doing short journeys within each town, or those parts do get registered as local services with the TCs^‡(resolve). It is very strange that, if this definition does affect what services are eligible for bus passes, it is nowhere cited in the sections of the Transport Act 2000 or the two SI's that define "eligible service".

When originally enacted, it was probably just an administrative matter that passengers need not know about. However, if bus pass validity does depend on it that's not true any more. How prospective passengers get to know this status, and whether a route is partly local and partly not, before boarding (or alighting!) is not clear.

So presumably Stagecoach West ought to say that it's not a local service, and as such not registered with DVSA. The fares strongly suggest it's not for local journeys, though if you can do one with a Megarider ticket what would that imply?

[trainer]

Chuffed and I took the ...er...bus/coach? (with his 'freebe' tokens) today and I make the following observations regarding the trip and the comments made above.

The distance between stops for which a fare is quoted is indeed well over 15miles, Aztec West to Waterwells P&R^▸ (Park and Ride), Gloucester being the 'trunk' section of route.  This is not a fare stage carriage service as I think they used to be called (perhaps still are).  This service more resembles a coach service than a local bus.

From one of the drivers we learned that three of the vehicles formerly used on the X5 Oxford-Cambridge route are now in the new livery for the service, with two more un-rebranded vehicles available if needed.  It is a two vehicle service into which a lot of money is being invested and all the timetable leaflets have free tickets included valid until 17th May.

My comments based on one very good experience of the service are, firstly, that they made a huge loss today and probably will for a few weeks yet, but with more publicity at the Bristol end it could prove to be a nice little earner if a decent two-way flow is established.  It will not make sense IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) to run into Bristol centre as that would require more vehicles and drivers and the traffic situation means that such a  journey could not be competitive with the train in cost or speed.

Certainly the staff encountered today were enthusiastic to make it work.

[chuffed]

One year on ..a report.

Been cut back in service to 4 departures a day ...one service going via cribbs, the others extended  to/from Cabot Circus,

I had been advised  by Stagecoach west CS that I can travel for ^2 each way with my ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) card so I arrived at Cabot circus in good time for the 0850 departure. The Bond Street side of CC has bus laybys but no stops whilst the Horsefair side has  First and wessex stops with just a phone number for stagecoach. I was hovering between the two roads outside McDonalds hoping to catch a glimpse of the belles coach to flag it down, It was due to arrive at 0840 and leave at 0850 so i thought that windoew of opportunity would see me through.
No chance ...9am came and went so I hopped on a 9 and caught the train to Gloucester and returned by train and bus to Debenhams just before 2pm. And lo and behold parked in front of a NatEX, what did I see..the stagecoach belle ready to leave at 2 ..outside Debenhams... which Bristolians will know is at least 200 yards from Cabot Circus.
So i leapt on and asked the driver what had happened. He explained that there was trouble with a coach that morning so it was replaced with a Stagecoach 94 purple and gold double decker that usually plies its trade between Gloucester and Cheltenham. Quite distinctive you might think amongst the barbie livery of First. How did I manage not to see it this morning... well the road does bend quite sharply so it was essentially out of my line of sight.
So I have put all this in an email to Stagecoach West CS. It has been passed on to the Commercial Operations manager and I await his reply. I have pointed out that the printed timetable  needs to be clear where the exact pick up point is, and that there needs to be something visual on the ground denoting that this is the designated Stagecoach stop. Nothing at Gloucester bus station Bay C either !

[Red Squirrel]

Not that anything would possess me to catch a bus to Gloucester these days (the old days; well that was another story - the 05:40 529, an RELH if you were lucky...) but this piqued my interest so I had a squiz:

The Stagecoach online timetable say this service leaves from 'Broadmead, Cabot Circus (Stop b)'. A quick check on the TravelWest map (http://travelwest.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/bristol-city-centre-webgbbn-dec-2015.pdf) shows that there is a stop B (we could maybe forgive the change of case) located just to the west of Cabot Circus - nowhere near Debenhams. So it beats me; maybe they don't want anyone to find them...