Excessing super off-peak to off-peak on board

[whole diary]

[Fourbee]

Morning all

I was under the impression (possibly wrongly) that a super off-peak ticket could be excessed to an off-peak ticket on board (even if there was an opportunity to do so beforehand).

However, reading this FGW^▸ (First Great Western) webpage https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Changing-my-ticket it says "To change to a different time period, buy an upgrade before you travel, or if that is not possible, on-board."

[JayMac]

It's always best to try to excess a time restricted walk-up ticket before you board, but there should be no penalty for doing so on board.

The ultimate arbiter of what is, and isn't allowed, is the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. That says:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel

Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:

(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or

(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

<snip>

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned.

I've highlighted the relevant text for the scenario outlined in the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter).

[ChrisB]

Of course, at barriered stations, you have no right of boarding if you're informed by barrier staff that you need to visit the ticket office first. Nothing quoted above allows you guaranteed access to the train if you can upgrade before boarding. (Nothing stops you either, unless its physical, like a barrier or staff member.)

[Fourbee]

Cheers BNM, I had read that NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) text, but not "read" it properly. Your highlighted sections are unambiguous.

Further down condition 12 (I've quoted that whole paragraph which included the first sentence you mentioned above):

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is
not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the
cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle
will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in
designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare.

There's that last sentence (highlighted) which makes it a bit unclear to me. AIUI^▸ (as I understand it), that last sentence is referring to sitting in first class with a standard ticket and I can understand getting a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) for that (unless e.g. weekend first is available), but it's said in the same breath (paragraph) as the SOP^▸ (Standard Operating Instructions)/OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter)/Anytime upgrade.

Of course, at barriered stations, you have no right of boarding if you're informed by barrier staff that you need to visit the ticket office first. Nothing quoted above allows you guaranteed access to the train if you can upgrade before boarding. (Nothing stops you either, unless its physical, like a barrier or staff member.)

Yeah... like a certain incident at Paddington in which I hope BNM will get satisfaction eventually

[ChrisB]

"This rule does not apply"...I read that as the whole rule/paragraph, so your upgrade too.

[JayMac]

There are two separate 'rules' mentioned in that last paragraph. One about excessing Off Peak/Super Off Peak and another about upgrading to 1st Class.

The final sentence says 'this rule' and not 'these rules' so must refer to the preceding rule about 1st Class. It can't possibly be referring to the rule about excessing Off Peak/Super Off Peak as Penalty Fares should not be issued in circumstances where a ticket is not valid merely because of a time restriction.

From the (Strategic Rail Authority - about)%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Rules%202002.pdf#page=12" target="_blank">Penalty Fares Rules:

7 Circumstances in which a penalty fare may not be charged

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Besides which, the earlier text of condition 12 from the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) is quite clear in mentioning if,

the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:

(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)

Note that bit about 'the train you are travelling in'

.

"This rule does not apply"...I read that as the whole rule/paragraph, so your upgrade too.

I don't. For the reasons given. Also changing a Super Off Peak/Off Peak to an Off Peak/Anytime is an excess not an upgrade.

As for what barrier staff say, they shouldn't overrule the National Rail Conditions of Carriage but can and do make things up as they go along. So yes, if there's time, and for an easy life, purchase your excess before boarding.

[ChrisB]

Ok, agreed, fair point. That piece must refer to the 1st upgrade only.

There still is nothing saying that you are 'entitled' to board without upgrading beforehand. IF you are aboard, then it does entitle you to upgrade on board with no penalty to the cheapest fare that allows travel on the train you are on.

But nothing to say you can refuse a request to upgrade before boarding if one is made.

[JayMac]

Yes, there is nothing to say that a request to excess on board, made to a gateline staffer, will be honoured. Luck of the draw there.

If it's close to departure and the service you intend to board has a Conductor/TM^‡(resolve) then I think they should let you board. I can understand them refusing if you intend to board a DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) service, although a lack of facilities to excess on board is not the fault of the passenger.

In summary for this type of excess:

Excess before boarding if at all possible. If it isn't possible then there is no penalty for doing so on board.

[Fourbee]

Excess before boarding if at all possible. If it isn't possible then there is no penalty for doing so on board.

I agree with the previous points mentioned. IMO^▸ (in my opinion) the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) would benefit from splitting the last bit about 1st class into a new paragraph and the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) page from BNMs wording above.

[ChrisB]

In summary for this type of excess:

Excess before boarding if at all possible. If it isn't possible then there is no penalty for doing so on board.

Add to that - "but don't be surprised if you are refused boarding if you turn up late as there is no entitlement to do so":
[/quote]

[Fourbee]

IF you are aboard, then it does entitle you to upgrade on board with no penalty to the cheapest fare that allows travel on the train you are on.

I take full responsibility for your Freudian slip of 'upgrade' ChrisB as I started it 

I have seen SWT^▸ (South West Trains) guards issuing these upgr... excesses on board from Waterloo without question, so these passengers must have got through the gateline without the ticket being rejected.

Not the case at Paddington though as we know (i.e. gatelines opening, can't comment about the ease of obtaining the excess if you managed to get on board).

[Fourbee]

Add to that - "but don't be surprised if you are refused boarding if you turn up late as there is no entitlement to do so":

...and of course having queued up and obtained the excess, your intended service may have left. As I say though, doesn't seem to be a problem over at Waterloo.

[ChrisB]

I've regularly been guided towards to ticket office when my off-peak ticker has been refused at the barriers there, rather than allowed on board

[Fourbee]

I've regularly been guided towards to ticket office when my off-peak ticker has been refused at the barriers there, rather than allowed on board

Your dodgy ticker will be even worse once you've run to the ticket office and back to your service ('Allo 'Allo style)

[ChrisB]

ker-tish!