Revenue Protection Officer On Train Authority

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

They well have more authority in some circumstances, but I very much doubt that over officious enforcement of seat reservations is one of them.

I have never heard, and hope I never will hear, of an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))/RPO writing someone up for failing to take their reserved seat.

There's no byelaw offence for failing to sit in your reserved seat. If there were you'd be breaking it by failing to turn up altogether. I think it extremely unlikely that the prosecutions dept. of a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would take such a case to the magistrates.

[grahame]

I note that you say the TM^‡(resolve) moved your seat reservation. Had you encountered a RPO then the situation may have been different as RPOs have more authority, in terms of enforcing restrictions.

Indeed it may have been different - but I would have thought that pretty unlikely unless "you" had been sitting in a first class seat with a standard class ticket.   

A "Revenue Protection Officer" is all about ensuring payment is made for the journey / train travelled on, and I would rather that an RPO on a train I was on spent his / her time checking tickets all along the train for people who hadn't paid / had paid less than legitimate rather than moving people into their allotted seats at no revenue gain.   Or are you suggesting, Paddington-Penzance, that sitting in the wrong seat on an advance ticket means you don't have a valid ticket for what you are doing, and should be charged the full standard fare to the next station? That may be technically correct (I don't know) but the press would have a field day with stories about that.

Just looked up terms and conditions ...

When and where the ticket can be used
Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

So pedantically you cannot visit the loo or buffet while the train is in motion 

[Penzance-Paddington]

So pedantically you cannot visit the loo or buffet while the train is in motion 

I guess it just refers to if you want to sit down then you must sit in the reserved seat. If you stand, as long as you are in the class of travel stated on your ticket, I wouldn't imagine you'd be MG11d or Penalty Fared.

However, as TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) use advance tickets to regulate passenger loadings, I can imagine that sitting in ANY other seat than the one reserved on an Advance ticket would be a breach of the ticket validity.





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.

[JayMac]

However, as TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) use advance tickets to regulate passenger loadings, I can imagine that sitting in ANY other seat than the one reserved on an Advance ticket would be a breach of the ticket validity.

...and not once on the privatised railway have I heard of a passenger being penalised for failing to sit in their reserved seat.

You mention in an earlier post that you've not done your training yet. Is that training to be an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))? If so, I'm very worried about your fixation on issues that are nothing to do with protecting revenue. I really hope you aren't looking for a way to curry favour with bosses by suggesting there might be an untapped income stream out there penalising these miscreants who dare to sit in an unreserved seat rather than their booked one.

[grahame]

However, as TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) use advance tickets to regulate passenger loadings, I can imagine that sitting in ANY other seat than the one reserved on an Advance ticket would be a breach of the ticket validity.

There could be some logic in that if these tickets were being used to regulate / balance loadings between carriages. My understanding, though, is that they're only used to regulate on a train by train basis (with the exception that there are different quotas for first and standard class).  Can someone confirm which it is?

[plymothian]

No, passengers do not have to sit in their reserved seat on advance tickets, only be on the booked train.  However, if they are not using their reserved seat, they cannot occupy another reserved seat if that reservation is valid and should expect to move if the passenger turns up.

However, a TM^‡(resolve) may enforce reserved seat only when the train is expected to be busy, but that is on a case by case basis.

[paul7575]

No, passengers do not have to sit in their reserved seat on advance tickets, only be on the booked train. 

Duff gen, I'm afraid.  The T&C on the National Rail website for the 'advance' ticket type DO require you to use your reserved seat:

When and where the ticket can be used
Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).
etc, etc...
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

I'd agree with anyone that it is hardly ever enforced, but that is a separate matter...

[plymothian]

We're talking FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)) here, their T&Cs do not mention having to occupy the reserved seat, only travelling on the booked train, hence NRE^‡(resolve)'s "where applicable.." caveat.

Anyhow, back to the original question at RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) is subordinate to the guard, and will (if possible) ask his/her permission to board a train.

[JayMac]

I'd agree with anyone that it is hardly ever enforced, but that is a separate matter...

Probably because there is no legislation to allow enforcement of failure to sit in your reserved seat.

[Penzance-Paddington]

You mention in an earlier post that you've not done your training yet. Is that training to be an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))? If so, I'm very worried about your fixation on issues that are nothing to do with protecting revenue. I really hope you aren't looking for a way to curry favour with bosses by suggesting there might be an untapped income stream out there penalising these miscreants who dare to sit in an unreserved seat rather than their booked one.

Yes that's correct, I'm about to work in Revenue Protection. My role as an RPO will be using my initiative to enforce the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) to ensure all passengers are travelling with a valid ticket, and certain factors can invalidate their ticket, i.e. travelling on an Advance ticket and sitting in a different seat to the one that's reserved. This will be as well as providing customer service, as per any other member of the on train team does.

Edit to fix quoting - GrahamE

[grahame]

Technical note ....

To quote a previous post, embed the section to want in a [ quote ] to [ /quote ] pair (without the spaces I have put in for this explanation.

The moderator and admin team here are the forum's policemen for enforcers - the RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) of this world, if you like.  However, we rarely intervene in a policing role - very much more often we lend a helping hand as we've done for your quoting, Paddington-Penzance.   I find very much the same attitude applies when travelling on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) trains, from the customer facing staff - they're very happy to help the customers with goodwill and friendly help, and only when it's pretty clear that the customer's trying to knowingly break the rules for financial benefit will they - rightly- act in a more authoritarian role.

Such a general across-the-board helpfulness cannot be just coming from the staff alone - it has also to be part of the ethos and policy of the company, and it can earn them great praise and loyal customers - ambassadors - who will travel again and again by train, even when there's a choice.  To take a more draconian role would loose customers.    And - back to the forum - the helpfulness is certainly ethos and policy here; it works keeping us a happy, buzzing group which I hope continues for many years.  At times, we have to pinch ourselves to remind us that we may post many times a day, but our users don't post very often / are new to this, and make mistakes, as seems to have happened with the quoting - where a gentle word of guidance should be all that's needed.  I hope you'll be learning to do the same with FGW, and your appointment doesn't signal a move to a hardline approach by the company, where a minor transgression by a non-english speaking person making their first UK^▸ (United Kingdom) train journey gets   charged for another ticket for not realising the need to sit in a coach labelled "First" but not one labelled "1st" as well.

[rogerw]

One thought springs to mind.  If you look at the terms and conditions of seat reservations the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) do not guarantee to reserve the seat.  If they then insist that you sit in a seat that they do not guarantee to reserve does this not fall under unfair contracts?

[JayMac]

Yes that's correct, I'm about to work in Revenue Protection. My role as an RPO will be using my initiative to enforce the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) to ensure all passengers are travelling with a valid ticket, and certain factors can invalidate their ticket, i.e. travelling on an Advance ticket and sitting in a different seat to the one that's reserved. This will be as well as providing customer service, as per any other member of the on train team does.

And you plan to write people up for failing to sit in their reserved seats do you? I'll give you my address by PM if you like, along with dates and times where, although holding an Advance Purchase ticket, I've decided not to travel. You can then forward the penalty to me for failing to sit in my reserved seat.

Do please tell me where in the NRCoC it says that my Advance Purchase ticket is invalidated if I fail to sit in my reserved seat. What if you do your (frankly over zealous and petty) enforcement of seat reservations when I've got up to stretch my legs, visit the buffet, use the toilet...?

Good luck in your forthcoming role. You are going to need it if the mindset you are showing here is one you intend to take on board trains.

 

[Penzance-Paddington]

Technical note ....

To quote a previous post, embed the section to want in a [ quote ] to [ /quote ] pair (without the spaces I have put in for this explanation.

The moderator and admin team here are the forum's policemen for enforcers - the RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) of this world, if you like.  However, we rarely intervene in a policing role - very much more often we lend a helping hand as we've done for your quoting, Paddington-Penzance.   I find very much the same attitude applies when travelling on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) trains, from the customer facing staff - they're very happy to help the customers with goodwill and friendly help, and only when it's pretty clear that the customer's trying to knowingly break the rules for financial benefit will they - rightly- act in a more authoritarian role.

Such a general across-the-board helpfulness cannot be just coming from the staff alone - it has also to be part of the ethos and policy of the company, and it can earn them great praise and loyal customers - ambassadors - who will travel again and again by train, even when there's a choice.  To take a more draconian role would loose customers.    And - back to the forum - the helpfulness is certainly ethos and policy here; it works keeping us a happy, buzzing group which I hope continues for many years.  At times, we have to pinch ourselves to remind us that we may post many times a day, but our users don't post very often / are new to this, and make mistakes, as seems to have happened with the quoting - where a gentle word of guidance should be all that's needed.  I hope you'll be learning to do the same with FGW, and your appointment doesn't signal a move to a hardline approach by the company, where a minor transgression by a non-english speaking person making their first UK^▸ (United Kingdom) train journey gets   charged for another ticket for not realising the need to sit in a coach labelled "First" but not one labelled "1st" as well.

Thank you for that Grahame. I've been struggling with quoting on here.

Of-course we do use discretion where we feel it's appropriate and we will be trained on such circumstances. I don't believe the company plans to change it's approach significantly. However, as I was trying to explain earlier, with Advance tickets, the ticket is only valid with the mandatory reservations.


P-P

[JayMac]

May I respectfully suggest you concentrate your efforts of those that are fare evading, travelling in 1st Class with Standard Class tickets, travelling on the wrong booked train, travelling on a discounted ticket with no proof on entitlement, etc, etc...

...rather than worrying your head about where legitimate ticket holders have chosen to sit.

By all means mediate it there are issues between passengers regarding reserved seats. But please don't bother moving settled passengers to their reserved seat when there's space and they've chosen to take up a vacant unreserved seat. It won't endear them to you.