Rolling stock now oldest since 2001 ... GWR oldest diesels of the lot!

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

Even when the full cost (plus a likely profit) is being paid by ToC(s).....hmmm, debatable

.........TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) who are subsidised by the taxpayer.

[ChrisB]

Only some these days - GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) isn't one of them....any longer

[ellendune]

Google gave me this definition:

Invest - put (money) into financial schemes, shares, property, or a commercial venture with the expectation of achieving a profit.

Doesn't actually say put capital in.  However, the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) (whoever they may be at the time) are committed to funding the lease for its duration and most of the financial risk falls on them.  

The manufacturer and leasing company really only take the risk that the trains do not work - though as seen with the Adelantes if the TOC also still have some risk in that case.

The TOC takes the risk that the income will not cover the cost of the leasing charges (together with their other costs).  A not inconsiderable risk given that they are significantly more expensive than the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s.

[ChrisB]

And as has been said on other threads, similar or fewer seats per train - so there is quite a bit of risk (more than currently) in not covering costs. That's investment in my book - new(er) stock hires (and additional services to run more seats) to encourage extra sales

[grahame]

It was very disappointing to here Dan Panes (cf First Group) talking about the investment we are making in new rolling stock. Remind me Dan - how much are First Group paying for the Class 800/801/802s?

That struck me at the time, but using the royal "we" of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Ltd including its constituent parts, taxpayers, fare payers and companies then "we" may be correct.    The invite to the user community from the local radio station had indeed come to TWSW^» (TravelWatch SouthWest - website) and I was passing on / speaking to their view, which I agree with and was based on past papers and a revising email discussion.  As often happens, the press release had gone out ahead of the publicity, with an embargo, so giving (in our case) Dan and myself time to prepare rather than be taken by surprise that morning.

[ellendune]

And as has been said on other threads, similar or fewer seats per train - so there is quite a bit of risk (more than currently) in not covering costs. That's investment in my book - new(er) stock hires (and additional services to run more seats) to encourage extra sales

I thought the full length trains had more seats or am I wrong?

[broadgage]

The full length new trains do indeed have more seats than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train).
Unfortunately, most of the fleet of new trains are half length and provide significantly less seats than an HST.

They could of course be run in multiple, with two half length units having a very similar capacity to a full length train.

I, and others are concerned that single half length trains with inadequate capacity may be used on busy services. As with voyagers, they can undoubtedly run in multiple and sometimes do, but overcrowded single operation is very frequent.

[hoover50]

I used to be on the 'Voyagers are crap' bandwagon, but with regular use of them I've changed my opinion. I'm now more than happy to use them.

Rather you than me.

I think Voyagers are absolutely awful trains. 

I hate them so much that whenever I need to travel from Wiltshire to the Midlands for work, I tend to travel by train via London or else just use my car and drive.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I used to be on the 'Voyagers are crap' bandwagon ...

I'm still on the 'Voyagers smell of crap' bandwagon ... 

I think Voyagers are absolutely awful trains. 

Seconded. 

[grahame]

From The Daily Mail

Ticket prices are up, and you can't always get a seat - now it's revealed our decrepit trains are 21-years-old!

* UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rolling stock is older than any point in publicly available records
* Campaigners say there is a postcode lottery for train quality
* The Caledonian Sleeper service has the oldest trains on average
* The findings were made by the Office of Rail and Road (ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about))

The term "decrepit" is used multiple times though the following article, and it seems that the author assumes that an old train has to be a decrepit train.  I'm not sure that I agree though there may be some correlation; how (if at all) does the ORR measure decrepitude?

[ChrisB]

I very much doubt it does. Who reads the Daily Mail anyway?

21 years is about half-life for a train, and is very far from decrepit, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion)

[grahame]

Who reads the Daily Mail anyway?

21 years is about half-life for a train, and is very far from decrepit, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion)

Welllllll ... I read it!    But only after it came up on a feed, I admit. The same story from the Daily Record

The average age of trains on Britain’s railways is the oldest in at least 15 years.

An investigation claims passengers are "paying through the nose for decrepit trains".

Ed Cox, director of IPPR North, who carried out the study, said: "It is little wonder Britain lags behind developed nations when commuters pay through the nose for decrepit trains.

"People in the north of England will be familiar with trains which leak whenever it gets wet.

"This is not what you’d see in Germany, France or Japan, or even down south."

UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Train Age by Operator:

1. Caledonian Sleeper (41)
2. Merseyrail (37)
3. TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Rail (36)
4. Gt Western Railway (33)
5. Virgin Trains East Coast (30)
6. Northern (27)

I'm a bit puzzled that the north's "decrepit trains" aren't what you would see in the south when some of the south's fleets (such as GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)) are significnatly older than the Northern fleet.  Perhaps that's confirmation it's not age after all, but also the maintenace regime?

[simonw]

This report has been raised on Daily Mail, The Guardian and The Independent, so not just one news source echoing a grievance.

The use of rail in this country has rocketed over the past 20 years, and whilst I don't personally have a gripe about train age I do about overcrowding and perceived safety.

Virtually every rail franchise in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) has ordered, or is in the process of ordering new trains, just a shame that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) local trains have not been replaced or added to yet, and the jury is still out whether anything will happen in the next 5 years (please correct me if I am wrong).

[ChrisB]

This report rather shows lack of Southern experience by writers in the North?

VTEC & TFL^▸ (Transport for London) Rail (a la London Overground) don't possess a 'decrepit' train, even though the average age in ion the top 5. You'd be hard pressed, on average, to find the very few GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) trains that might be described as 'decrepit'. I'd almost suggest that they have no experience of trains whatsoever, and just *think* that old trains = decrepit, using a car analogy as their comparison (wrong).

Either that or they haven't checked a definition of 'decrepit'

[IndustryInsider]

Virtually every rail franchise in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) has ordered, or is in the process of ordering new trains, just a shame that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) local trains have not been replaced or added to yet, and the jury is still out whether anything will happen in the next 5 years (please correct me if I am wrong).

Well, there's around 180 carriages worth of Class 387 trains for local services currently being delivered.

I'd like to see a comparison of the age of British rolling stock compared with the rest of Europe.  I don't think an average of 20 years would be uncommon.

An easy 'shock' article for the papers to print, as 20 years seems old to a general public who see similar forms of transport that they use, such as cars and buses, generally going to the scrapheap not long after their tenth birthday.

Largely meaningless though, and even with the masses of new stock currently on the order book I doubt we'll ever see the average age of stock come down below the 10 year mark.  That's just not how it works with trains.