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Author Topic: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network  (Read 13840 times)
ChrisB
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2016, 10:47:40 »

a long time into the future - a lot of the stock in those franchises is not old & TfL» (Transport for London - about) will take them on unchanged
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paul7575
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2016, 14:02:43 »

The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25....so inner suburban.

However, the real problem is that very few if any routes have current spare paths in the peaks - so if TfL» (Transport for London - about) are going to start these up, what loses out?....either accelerated longer distance (so no stopping in places like Bromley South) or possibly fewer more inconvenient pathings?

The M25 isn't a political boundary and isn't easily comparable to the Greater London (GLA) area. The latter is about the same area as the 6 main travelcard zones. What they have fairly consistently described, over a few years now, is taking control of all services that terminate within that Greater London area, and then any additional services that run through to a 'natural terminus' just outside where it would make no operational sense to split off a few stations.

So looking just at the SWT (South West Trains) area, they (TfL) have previously proposed that stoppers to Windsor would be in, but Reading would not.  Shepperton, Epsom and Dorking would be in, but Woking and Guildford stoppers would be out.

The possible 'return of NSE (Network South East)' has never been the aim, in any shape or form.

Paul
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ChrisB
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2016, 15:01:30 »

So looking just at the SWT (South West Trains) area, they (TfL» (Transport for London - about)) have previously proposed that stoppers to Windsor would be in, but Reading would not.  Shepperton, Epsom and Dorking would be in, but Woking and Guildford stoppers would be out.

The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25....

That does look as though you agree with me.
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paul7575
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2016, 15:26:23 »

So looking just at the SWT (South West Trains) area, they (TfL» (Transport for London - about)) have previously proposed that stoppers to Windsor would be in, but Reading would not.  Shepperton, Epsom and Dorking would be in, but Woking and Guildford stoppers would be out.

The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25....

That does look as though you agree with me.

It's only because of the coincidence that the M25 happens to match the rail route extents in some areas.   But that doesn't make it the intention of TfL does it?

It's more to do with some members of the press confusing London with the area within the M25...

Paul
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ChrisB
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2016, 15:40:55 »

No, I don't think so - Boris J has been quoted as mentioning services within the M25 on TV news and in print. TfLs» (Transport for London - about) intentions definitely extend beyond the GLA area.....
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paul7575
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2016, 15:58:52 »

No, I don't think so - Boris J has been quoted as mentioning services within the M25 on TV news and in print. TfLs» (Transport for London - about) intentions definitely extend beyond the GLA area.....

The text of the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) prospectus has this: 

This proposal includes the transfer of responsibility from the DfT to TfL for inner suburban rail services that operate mostly or wholly within Greater London, as current franchises fall due for renewal.

My bold, the M25 is not mentioned.  Just another Boris soundbite with no real justification.

Paul
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stuving
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2016, 16:19:52 »

I'm not sure how anyone could really respond to this as a consultation document. It doesn't propose how the split of responsibility would be reflected in services, nor does it pose any questions. It's more of an advert, or perhaps a manifesto.

If you look at the web page with the link, it lists five bullet points. Setting aside what is already planned to happen, we can look in the document for what is added by the proposed change:
  •     more frequent rail services - but only off-peak
  •     better rail interchanges - I can't find this. And will the interchanges with outer suburban and long-distance trains be worse?
  •     increased rail capacity - I can't find any not already being discussed by NR» (Network Rail - home page).
  •     greater reliability of rail services - just a claim
  •     high standards of customer service - also just a claim, and who pays for the extra staff?

I can see that greater train capacity might (after current stock orders) be feasible using "more-standing" trains. Splitting more services close to the GLA boundary might be a better fit with using stock that has lower capacity once it goes too far for standing to be acceptable. But that's not actually set out as a proposal.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2016, 16:54:10 »

And will the interchanges with outer suburban and long-distance trains be worse?

That is extremely important & one of the reasons that the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) has held TfL» (Transport for London - about) off until now. cf the Met Line - once away from GLA area (and hence authority member reps) the service has deteriorated. No fast Amersham services any more, pushing those pax onto Chiltern & away from TfL. TfL see a station as something that must be stopped at - so bye-bye any (semi-)fast services if & where they exist now.
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ellendune
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2016, 16:56:44 »

Should the quid pro quo include transferring the Amersham services to Chiltern? 
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paul7575
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2016, 17:05:16 »


If you look at the web page with the link, it lists five bullet points. Setting aside what is already planned to happen, we can look in the document for what is added by the proposed change:

  ... better rail interchanges - I can't find this. And will the interchanges with outer suburban and long-distance trains be worse?


I think it's a two faced statement.   They see better interchange as allowing for some higher frequencies.

AIUI (as I understand it) one of their supposed great ideas seems to be that (particularly in the Southern and Southeastern areas) there are a number of origins that share their existing capacity to two or even three main line termini.   So you might have a branch where that magical four or six tph 'to London' can be achieved simply by switching all its current services to one destination, e.g. the Hayes branch going to Charing Cross only rather than both Charing Cross and Cannon St as now.

So at the present 'split point' if heading towards Central London (e.g. Lewisham for Hayes) you'd definitely need better interchange - because you'd be trying to convince half of existing passengers that an interchange was better than their existing service...

In summary I suppose they think that by going for a tube like 'mesh' of point to point services they can increase notional frequencies, by making interchange en route the norm rather than historic through services.  I think they are treading on thin ice myself.

Paul
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paul7575
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2016, 17:10:19 »

Should the quid pro quo include transferring the Amersham services to Chiltern? 
It's odd that the recent changes at Amersham and Chesham are the opposite to what they now seem to think is best practice for the mainline.  Amersham and Chesham currently each have a 2 tph all day through service, but previously didn't Amersham get that 4 tph all day service with Chesham provided for by a half sized train running a shuttle service from Chalfont and Latimer?

Paul
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ChrisB
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2016, 17:19:14 »

Should the quid pro quo include transferring the Amersham services to Chiltern? 

Can't & won't happen - paths on the shared Rickmansworth/Harrow section are full in the peak. Chiltern would have to be given the full use of that track....
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Chris125
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2016, 15:43:54 »

The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25....so inner suburban.

You can get a very good idea of what TfL» (Transport for London - about) are considering on page 20 of the GLA's 'Devolving rail services to London'' report from last year.
 
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stuving
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2016, 00:25:49 »

You can get a very good idea of what TfL» (Transport for London - about) are considering on page 20 of the GLA's 'Devolving rail services to London'' report from last year.
 

It's an odd mixture of a document - it starts as pretty much as a marketer's pitch, but towards the end it does look at the disadvantages. And then there are things that are missing.

The biggest omission is anything serious about how to increase capacity. Overground was an easy gain, in that its use had declined to a low level, so when passengers did want to return to using it the capacity was there. In this quote:
Quote
The Mayor and TfL^s priority since 2007 has been to extend the London Overground network. This has happened in part through the addition of new track infrastructure, and more significantly through the devolution of suburban services on the Greater Anglia franchise in 2015.
what fraction of the increase was due to new track?

Closer inspection suggests that what they are really proposing is higher off-peak frequencies, possible because the longer-distance services are then less than in the peaks. That would mean more trains off-peak than in the peaks - as we once had for Waterloo-Reading. All very useful, but hard to pay for. In that context, this quote is interesting:
Quote
The recent extension of the London Overground following the devolution of suburban services from the Greater Anglia franchise in May 2015  demonstrates the challenge facing  TfL. Prior to devolution,  the previous operator, Abellio, ran these routes profitably.  However, figures provided by TfL indicate that the service will now be run at a loss for the foreseeable future: between 2014/15 and 2020/21, TfL^s net expenditure in just these routes will total ^78 million. This is after the ongoing grant from government to TfL has been taken into account.

In terms of "which services do they want to grab", the map (fig.7, p 20) is a bit fuzzy, but does suggest nothing off GWR (Great Western Railway) other than what becomes Crossrail (which is logical) and none of Chiltern or the other north-bound lines (which looks a bit less so). SWT (South West Trains) would split at Virginia Water, with Windsor and Weybridge services being devolved.   


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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2016, 11:49:59 »

but does suggest nothing off GWR (Great Western Railway) other than what becomes Crossrail (which is logical)

I can't see how it's logical for GWR to continue to run West Ealing to Greenford services after Crossrail commences, other than the fact it's a diesel service.
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