Season tickets and online purchases

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Not sure what's to add. Not every point to point or point to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) has a specified max journey time in the SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment). So there's nothing to prevent a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) from massaging (extending) journey times to avoid/reduce Delay/Repay compensation.

So you're suggesting TOCs could add time to intermediate journeys but somehow keep to the overall SLC time for the end to end journey. How would that work?

All end to end journeys have a specified maximum time in the SLC. Major stations en-route on longer journeys also have maximums. I can't see how adding time to intermediate journeys not specified in the SLC, to beat compensation, would work without breaching the SLC and thus the franchise agreement.

And where do you decide to add that time if you think it is possible to pad an intermediate journey without effecting end to end time? You'd need a crystal ball to predict delays that would fall just over 30/60/120 minutes and then pad that service's timetable to add the journey time minutes to bring the delay under the compensation threshold times. Whilst also ensuring that your gaze into the future and manipulation doesn't affect the SLC end to end maximum journey time.

Service Level Commitment maximum journey times were brought into Franchise Agreements specifically to prevent TOCs from further padding of timetables.

I know TOCs can be craven, but this is one example where timetable manipulation can't work to their benefit. Therefore I contend your assertion is a stupid one.

[Tim]

One quick way for the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) simply to add further delay minutes to its timetable

except that it is in the TOC's interest to attract customers with a fast timetable. 

[ChrisB]

Quite. So there's a middle line that TICs^▸ (Tourist Information Centre) are willing to meet. But if they're codts rise significantly. They'll be looking for a way to reduce them?

BMM, please tell me on which page all these journeys apoear in the SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment). If part of said franchise, they're availBle online. Link please?

[JayMac]

All routes are listed in the Service Level Commitments. They are currently:

Great Western Main Line
A1 London Paddington ^ Reading ^ Swindon.
A2 London Paddington ^ Cardiff Central ^ Swansea.
A3 London Paddington^ Bristol Temple Meads/Weston super Mare
A4 London Paddington/Swindon - Cheltenham Spa
West of England
B London Paddington ^ Plymouth / Penzance
Thames Valley Inner
C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction) London Paddington ^ Reading
C2 London Paddington ^ Hayes & Harlington (applies throughout)
C3 London Paddington ^ Greenford / Hayes & Harlington (dated)
C4 Slough ^ Windsor & Eton Central
C5 Maidenhead ^ Marlow
C6 Twyford ^ Henley-on-Thames
Thames Valley Outer
D1 London Paddington ^ Oxford (Fast services)
D2 Reading ^ Oxford
D3 Not used
D4 Oxford ^ Banbury
D5 Oxford ^ Worcester Foregate Street - Hereford
D6 London Paddington ^ Reading ^ Newbury ^ Bedwyn
D7 Reading ^ Basingstoke
North Downs
E Reading ^ Redhill / Gatwick Airport
Regional Interurban
F1 Cardiff Central ^ Portsmouth Harbour
F2a Cardiff Central ^ Bristol Temple Meads
F2b Bristol Temple Meads ^ Westbury
F3 Westbury ^ Southampton Central
F4 Westbury ^ Weymouth
F5 Westbury ^ Swindon
F6 Southampton Central ^ Brighton
Bristol
G1a Bristol Temple Meads ^ Taunton ^ Exeter St David^s
G1b Bristol Temple Meads ^ Weston super Mare
G1c Filton Abbey Wood ^ Bristol Temple Meads
G2 Bristol Temple Meads ^ Severn Beach
G3 Bristol Temple Meads ^ Cheltenham Spa - Great Malvern
Devon and Cornwall
H1 Exeter St David^s ^ Plymouth
H1a Exeter St David^s ^ Plymouth
H2 Plymouth ^ Penzance
H3 Exeter St David^s ^ Exmouth
H4 Exeter St David^s ^ Paignton
H4a Exeter St David^s ^ Paignton
H5 Exeter St David^s ^ Barnstaple
H6 Exeter Central ^ Crediton
H7 Plymouth ^ Gunnislake
H8 Liskeard ^ Looe
H9 Par ^ Newquay
H10 Truro ^ Falmouth Docks
H11 St Erth ^ St Ives

Every one of those has a maximum journey time. Any significant time added to an intermediate journey on any of those routes would have a knock on effect for the end to end journey. That would likely see the tightly specified maximum journey time exceeded.

Again, I say it is neither possible, or in their interests, for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to arbitrarily extend journey times to reduce their delay compensation payments.

[ChrisB]

I'm saying that there is a few minutes leeway in the majority of these services (say, up to 7 mins) that would reduce the number of trains subject to dekay/repay. Whether that meets your definition of 'significant' I don't know.

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not advocating this

[JayMac]

I'm saying that there is a few minutes leeway in the majority of these services (say, up to 7 mins) that would reduce the number of trains subject to dekay/repay. Whether that meets your definition of 'significant' I don't know.

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not advocating this

Nothing to advocate. GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) won't be changing any timetables to beat delay compensation. There's the maximum journey times to stay under, pathing to keep to, clockface timings for many services, connection times to maintain. And not least, no idea when and where delays will occur.

[Jason]

I'll check for one which was 31 mins late and put in a claim stating that I was on it? - job done!

I'm no expert, but that sounds a bit like fraud to me...

The experts agree...
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/commuters-ordered-to-repay-thousands-after-southern-railway-compensation-scam-a3178031.html

[Tim K]

I've just done the calculations for my season ticket and I think the switch to delay repay will mean I get less compensation for delays and need to do lots more paperwork to claim.

Currently I've got a 5% discount for the last few years.

Under delay repay (assuming GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) uses similar rules to Southern and South Eastern) it's 0.1% of the annual season ticket price every time I'm delayed by more than 30 minutes but less than 60 minutes, and 0.2% of the annual season ticket for delays of over 60 minutes (i.e. assumes I make 500 journeys per year).

According to recenttraintimes.co.uk my usual trains only have delays of 31-60 minutes around 2% of the time and delays of over 60 minutes 1% of the time.

So my compensation once delay repay comes into force will be around 2% but I'll need to fill in a claim form around 15 times per year.

I think it's a fairer system, especially for people who've paid a small fortune for a walk up ticket, but I think the amount of compensation paid out will go down even if we ignore the people who won't bother to claim.

[Fourbee]

Apologies for being thick; do you actually have to travel on these delayed trains to get compensation legitimately? If you were a season ticket holder and noticed the train you intended to travel on was delayed and you made alternative arrangements does that effectively exclude you from getting compensation?

[paul7575]

I've just done the calculations for my season ticket and I think the switch to delay repay will mean I get less compensation for delays and need to do lots more paperwork to claim.

Currently I've got a 5% discount for the last few years.

Under delay repay (assuming GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) uses similar rules to Southern and South Eastern) it's 0.1% of the annual season ticket price every time I'm delayed by more than 30 minutes but less than 60 minutes, and 0.2% of the annual season ticket for delays of over 60 minutes (i.e. assumes I make 500 journeys per year).

Checking a couple of recent franchises that have 'delay repay' rather than Charter discounts, there seems to have been some movement on the number of single journeys deemed to be made on an annual season, with both GTR and Virgin EC using a basis figure of 464.   GTR/Southern's is down from its original 546, which was presumably based on more than 10 singles per 52 weeks, with no allowances at all.

500 is probably fine for a rule of thumb, but it will be interesting to see if DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) get a grip on this and issue standard calculation rules so that every TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) uses the same figure.

Paul

[John R]

Apologies for being thick; do you actually have to travel on these delayed trains to get compensation legitimately? If you were a season ticket holder and noticed the train you intended to travel on was delayed and you made alternative arrangements does that effectively exclude you from getting compensation?

And similarly if the train you intended to travel on was cancelled, so you delayed your journey to the station and caught the next one.

[ChrisB]

That comes under the delay stat....if your following train is more than 30 mins arriving after the cancelled was due, then you qualify - if less you don't. I think that applies for comp now.

[IndustryInsider]

I've just done the calculations for my season ticket and I think the switch to delay repay will mean I get less compensation for delays and need to do lots more paperwork to claim.

Interesting article on 'delay repay' including sobering news of what happens if you try to cheat the system too blatantly!  One part which got my attention is where it mentions the delay threshold being reduced from 30 minutes to 15 minutes which the government are apparently 'actively considering'.

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/article1654-Delay-Repay-Losers

A 15 minute threshold would, at a guess, quadruple the number of times the average person could claim for a refund, so would be extremely generous if it comes to fruition.