Maximum time a driver can drive without a stop

[whole diary]

[BerkshireBugsy]

I've spent far too much time on trains this last week including trips to and from Glasgow on the Pendelino service.

The service I used was non-stop from Euston to Warrington Bank Quay - which is just under two hours. Out of curiosity is there a maximum time limit a driver can go between stops? It seems quite a long stretch or maybe there is more than one driver...just curious!

BB

[JayMac]

Drivers on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) will typically change over at Preston.

ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) recommend a break for drivers between 3 to 5 hours after shift start.

[readytostart]

Virgin do have a train in the afternoon that only stops at Preston on it's way to Glasgow.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82696/2016/03/03

[BerkshireBugsy]

Many thanks - but I think I must have phrased by question wrongly....so let me try again

Is there a maximum time between station stops that a driver is allowed to drive for? I will be having a look at the "one stop at Preston" RTT^» (Real Time Trains - website) entry as by my reckoning that must be 3 hours between Euston and the first schedule stop

[IndustryInsider]

No maximum as such, though whatever rules apply the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s 'continuous driving' limits would need to be adhered to.

[Timmer]

Virgin do have a train in the afternoon that only stops at Preston on it's way to Glasgow.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82696/2016/03/03

Which will become a normal London-Glasgow station stops service from the May timetable change thus ending the era of the London to Glasgow express service taking a little over 4 hours. A luxury that can no longer be afforded.

[grahame]

Virgin do have a train in the afternoon that only stops at Preston on it's way to Glasgow.

Which will become a normal London-Glasgow station stops service from the May timetable change thus ending the era of the London to Glasgow express service taking a little over 4 hours. A luxury that can no longer be afforded.

Are you suggesting that long distance fast trains with minimal stops are a luxury, and that the affordable approach is to have more stops to allow more journey opportunities?   There seems significant logic to stopping long distance expresses at major interchanges / hubs along the way.    I suppose for London to Glasgow, that would be Crewe, Preston and Carlisle ... for London to Plymouth, logic might suggest Reading, Westbury and Exeter St. David's.

[trainer]

I wondered about the rules in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) over drivers' hours after a trip on the Swedish Inlandsbanan between ^stersund and G^llivare last summer.  On that run the same driver (with no assistant) drives north for around 14 hours (with breaks), stays overnight in a very nice hotel and then drives south. 28 hours driving (plus prep/positioning moves) out of 48, admittedly not at high speed, but with plenty of large wildlife hazards on the unfenced track, seemed excessive to me. Apparently the rosta involved a further 12 hours driving the the day before this sequence began on the southern section of the line to/from Mora. The driver I met was retired (!) and was employed only for the short summer season when these trains run.  I'm not sure what ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) would have to say to such an arrangement.

The timetable can be seen here: inlandsbanan.se/en/travel/timetables#.Vti7pClo4-9

Despite my reservations the trip is well worth doing - but not all in one go.

[Bmblbzzz]

Coach drivers are allowed to drive for 5.5 hours without a break, so 3 hours doesn't seem excessive in comparison.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hours-passenger-vehicles/2-great-britain-domestic-rules

[Chris from Nailsea]

In my role, as a van delivery driver, my manual's instructions on 'Breaks from driving' state:

After no more than 4.5 hours of driving, you must take a break of at least 45 minutes unless you begin a daily or weekly rest period. During such breaks you are not allowed to carry out any other work.

This break may be replaced by two breaks, the first at least 15 minutes long, and the second at least 30 minutes distributed over or immediately following a 4.5 hour driving period.

[insider]

HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) drivers maximum of 4 hours (mon-sat) and 4 1/2 hours (Sunday) continuous before a 10 min cab break as a minimum... total driving is 8 hours per shift (possibly 8 1/2 on a Sunday not certain)

LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) drivers maximum is 5 hours, unless a cab break of 14 mins then 6 hours is limit.
Total driving 8 1/2 hours per shift

There are also mileage limits but will have to ask a friend for that figure....I will also see if I can locate the WEST area rules on limits too

[Timmer]

Are you suggesting that long distance fast trains with minimal stops are a luxury, and that the affordable approach is to have more stops to allow more journey opportunities?   There seems significant logic to stopping long distance expresses at major interchanges / hubs along the way.    I suppose for London to Glasgow, that would be Crewe, Preston and Carlisle ... for London to Plymouth, logic might suggest Reading, Westbury and Exeter St. David's.

Sadly, yes I am suggesting that they are a luxury  There is nothing like being on an express train journey when travelling long distance. There are still good limited stop services to enjoy with: London-Edinburgh first stop York, London-Glasgow first stop Warrington, London-WofE services next stop Exeter after Reading and of course from 2018 London-Bristol TM^‡(resolve) via Parkway.

[Tim]

G^llivare

apparently this place name sounds like quite a bad Swedish swearword so care is needed when saying it. 

[stuving]

Are you suggesting that long distance fast trains with minimal stops are a luxury, and that the affordable approach is to have more stops to allow more journey opportunities?   There seems significant logic to stopping long distance expresses at major interchanges / hubs along the way.    I suppose for London to Glasgow, that would be Crewe, Preston and Carlisle ... for London to Plymouth, logic might suggest Reading, Westbury and Exeter St. David's.

Sadly, yes I am suggesting that they are a luxury  There is nothing like being on an express train journey when travelling long distance. There are still good limited stop services to enjoy with: London-Edinburgh first stop York, London-Glasgow first stop Warrington, London-WofE services next stop Exeter after Reading and of course from 2018 London-Bristol TM^‡(resolve) via Parkway.

But this was the one fast train per day on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) - most trains have five more stops and take 4:31, taking those out saves 23 minutes. But isn't it really a question of loadings?

If you can get enough passengers for a fast train, it's not really a "luxury"; they pay for it. If you can't, their better (quicker) train is being paid for by someone else and the label could be justified. On the other hand, if most passengers are going all the way, or are well enough served by your one stop mid-route, then the services with more stops are the luxury. But how much freedom there is to run less popular trains is a matter of loadings vs. capacity. There may have been more freedom to do that in the past, but I don't think the owners of the railways ever happily paid out to run empty trains around.

Given this was the only fast train, presumably it had a publicity value. Virgin will have to change their advertised journey time, won't they? And that - one train a day to give you bragging rights - certainly was common in the old days. I wonder why it's been changed, though. One factor is the idea that train services must be as regular as possible, and a one-off quickie doesn't fit that. That only came in for long-distance trains quite recently.

[Bmblbzzz]

In my role, as a van delivery driver, my manual's instructions on 'Breaks from driving' state:

After no more than 4.5 hours of driving, you must take a break of at least 45 minutes unless you begin a daily or weekly rest period. During such breaks you are not allowed to carry out any other work.

This break may be replaced by two breaks, the first at least 15 minutes long, and the second at least 30 minutes distributed over or immediately following a 4.5 hour driving period.

Yep, those were the rules I was aware of so I was surprised to discover PCV drivers are allowed an hour more before having a break. Thought that was more relevant to a passenger-carrying train though.