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Author Topic: TFW Future Timetable Consultation  (Read 739 times)
welsh1980
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« on: April 12, 2024, 19:59:55 »

TFW have a consultation for the future timetable. 

https://haveyoursay.tfw.wales/strategic-future-timetable-review?fbclid=IwAR1F_zm4kuFzZ7A46IeSr7yjpw7ULTUIJaniOTA0KU57aRLHS3fCneOdrDk_aem_AdmWEoId3Rp5fsisXf-wC-Ru0xrxvH3d0e0mbEPjBbrw8s_BkdDy5LSH1ANJETC3AAQ

Apparently they hope to implement these changes from the December 2024 timetable change.  But there is a consulation open until May so things could change, but draft timetables are included.  This consultation does not include the Cardiff Metro/Valley routes as these are separate to the rest of the core network but does include Vale of Glamorgan, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale. 

It seems to me they have backtracked on a lot of the promises made back in late 2022 for the Dec 2023 timetable (most of which were deferred until this December anyway but now they have cancelled may things alltogether).

What is particularly disappointing is the lack of hourly Swanline service that was promised, although there appear to be improvements to both the morning and evening timetable with an hourly service from around 6.30am-9.30am in both directions plus extra services in the evening.

Also the HOWL has taken a step backwards by going back to 4 trains per day and pretty much the timetable used before Dec 2022. The Cambrian also loses services but I dont have any first hand experience with this route so cant comment.

Good to see extra services for West Wales particularly Haverfordwest and Milford Haven and the long awaited hourly all day service between Cardiff-Cheltenham but thats about it!

Most surprising of all is a few Camarthen-Cardiff services cancelled entirely (ive spotted at least 2 that dont go Manchester anymore due to the MK4's from Cardiff have been removed alltogether).  This results in around an hour gap twice in the morning between Swansea-Cardiff which surprises me.  Both the 0853 and 1058 services from Carmarthen to Cardiff are cancelled.

Also the 06xx Carmarthen-Manchester will go via the district line. It used to be the service an hour earlier that did that but of course that is now the daily MK4 from Swansea to Manchester (which is actually booked for a 197 at the moment but thats a different story) but running the service that used to pass Neath around 7am via the SDL isnt good news for Swansea and Neath passengers.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2024, 20:12:39 by welsh1980 » Logged
Hafren
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2024, 20:39:08 »

The Swanline and HoW(resolve) improvements are very unfortunate. Swanline and south end of HoW are underutilised, and need a service more suited to the populations served in order to grow - huge lost potential. With recent cuts in bus services there's also the possibility of abstracting former bus demand.  As it stands the service levels keep numbers low which can then be used as a reason not to improve things. Certainly the late evening SWA» (Swansea - next trains)-LLV hasn't looked full when I've seen it, but with few daytime trains to provide the outbound traffic, and a high cancellation rate, it's not exactly been allowed to grow demand. Presumably this comes back to funding, of course, but not good when we need to encourage public transport usage.
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jamestheredengine
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2024, 23:26:31 »

They've annoyingly cancelled the wrong trains between Cardiff and Carmarthen. And there's a really unhelpful GWR (Great Western Railway) change on there (moving the Carmarthen service off 1B21, which is good, but onto 1B22 (which might as well terminate at Cardiff) rather than 1B20 (which really needs not to terminate at Cardiff just where it's getting busy – even splitting it at Cardiff into 5 cars to Carmarthen and 5 back to Paddington for an early bath in North Pole Depot would be better)) plus a particular bit of TfW dog-in-mangerism that will ruin GWR's reliability (the stoppers either side of 1L11 – which could do with retiming a minute earlier to make connections at Cardiff Central into the 0841 Aberdare service for Queen Street and Cathays officially work – have their stopping patterns the opposite way round from what's helpful). Does anyone know where the corresponding GWR consultation is? GWR really should be driving this rather than letting the regional rail operator wag the dog.
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2024, 00:18:59 »

Overall I wonder if this is TfW trying to under-promise so that it can over-deliver later. It could be argued that this is a valid response to recent over-promising, under-delivering, as anyone who has wandered through the underpass at Queen Street will note!

I can't see 1L11 getting to CDF» (Cardiff - next trains) at 0835 behind that stopper! Especially if it's operated by 153s initially - those timings could only possibly work with a 197, and even then it's tight. Strange that the stoppers are often leaving SWA» (Swansea - next trains) 2 mins behind the Londons (and the timings at Llansamlet suggesting this is being maintained throughout that stretch)... have the long 2-aspect sections between Landore and Neath that previously required 5 min headways in the rules been removed? (Not rhetorical - no idea.)

I'm not a fan of the 5 car Manchesters splitting to 2 cars (as per the previous draft) at SWA. Maybe with the recently increased IET (Intercity Express Train) presence beyond Swansea the capacity need is better managed, but it's not ideal, as those 2 car sets end up on the journeys that start/terminate at CDF. It's less of a problem on the down where they're generally following IETs, but on the up it's not great, or indeed on the down if IETs are disrupted. There is a general issue with near-hour gaps CDF-SWA (to spell it out, on the main line between Wales's two main cities) - on the down because of the way trains are flighted, and on the up where the newly-proposed gaps arise.

Good to see the increase on the Milfords, but it is at expense of improvements to the Fishguards. Perhaps this is recognising differences in demand, and it also means more Milfords to/from Manchester. The idea would be the previously proposed 2 hourly to each, plus a 2 hourly CMN-MFH shuttle, but that would require another unit & crew.

The evening down Swanline service much is better than in the earlier draft, with existing last train restored. Plus there's an up Swanline leaving SWA around 23:30, a need that is mentioned in local media from time to time; I think in the previous  draft that only stopped at main stations.

Interesting to see the Pembroke DOcks and Swanlines merging - perhaps on the basis of feedback from previous draft, noting that PMD was the only Pembrokeshire branch not to have a regular Cardiff service, although it could be argued that the PMDs connnected best with the Londons - and connecting into an IET is perhaps preferable to a through 2 car journey. (Can of worms re IET comfort opened...)
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infoman
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2024, 03:57:09 »

I presume its an on-line consultation only?

Be nice if there could be a few public meetings,

like TFW did for the blockade on the Chepstow to Gloucester line to stabelise the embankment

Not to mention the meetings held for the amount of new stations that are planned from Severn Tunnel junction to Cardiff line.

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welsh1980
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2024, 12:19:13 »

I hope all Swanline is formed of 197s by December!  They havent got a hope of keeping to time if formed of 153s

It looks like the consultation is online although I suppose people could write a letter if they didnt want to do it/couldnt do it online.  Havent heard of them having public meetings however. 

I believe the stations between STJ (Severn Tunnel Junction railway station) and Cardiff are related to the Metro which is being kept seperate to the core TFW services. 
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welsh1980
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2024, 22:28:48 »

Overall I wonder if this is TfW trying to under-promise so that it can over-deliver later. It could be argued that this is a valid response to recent over-promising, under-delivering, as anyone who has wandered through the underpass at Queen Street will note!

I can't see 1L11 getting to CDF» (Cardiff - next trains) at 0835 behind that stopper! Especially if it's operated by 153s initially - those timings could only possibly work with a 197, and even then it's tight. Strange that the stoppers are often leaving SWA» (Swansea - next trains) 2 mins behind the Londons (and the timings at Llansamlet suggesting this is being maintained throughout that stretch)... have the long 2-aspect sections between Landore and Neath that previously required 5 min headways in the rules been removed? (Not rhetorical - no idea.)

I'm not a fan of the 5 car Manchesters splitting to 2 cars (as per the previous draft) at SWA. Maybe with the recently increased IET (Intercity Express Train) presence beyond Swansea the capacity need is better managed, but it's not ideal, as those 2 car sets end up on the journeys that start/terminate at CDF. It's less of a problem on the down where they're generally following IETs, but on the up it's not great, or indeed on the down if IETs are disrupted. There is a general issue with near-hour gaps CDF-SWA (to spell it out, on the main line between Wales's two main cities) - on the down because of the way trains are flighted, and on the up where the newly-proposed gaps arise.

Good to see the increase on the Milfords, but it is at expense of improvements to the Fishguards. Perhaps this is recognising differences in demand, and it also means more Milfords to/from Manchester. The idea would be the previously proposed 2 hourly to each, plus a 2 hourly CMN-MFH shuttle, but that would require another unit & crew.

The evening down Swanline service much is better than in the earlier draft, with existing last train restored. Plus there's an up Swanline leaving SWA around 23:30, a need that is mentioned in local media from time to time; I think in the previous  draft that only stopped at main stations.

Interesting to see the Pembroke DOcks and Swanlines merging - perhaps on the basis of feedback from previous draft, noting that PMD was the only Pembrokeshire branch not to have a regular Cardiff service, although it could be argued that the PMDs connnected best with the Londons - and connecting into an IET is perhaps preferable to a through 2 car journey. (Can of worms re IET comfort opened...)

I doubt the 0835 arrival into Cardiff will make the final timetable. With a Swanline arriving 1 minute ahead of it. That is definately going to risk the performance of the GWR (Great Western Railway)

Im also surprised the Swanline's depart 2 mins after the GWR - is that even allowed for them to be so close  - they are only 5 minutes behind at Neath which includes stops at Llansamlet and Skewen.  It looks far too tight. 

Im not a fan of the splitting of services at Swansea either.  But it should work both ways and any Camarthen-Cardiff services should gain extra carriages at Swansea and then back from Cardiff not just the ones that go to/come from Manchester.

The Pembroke Dock-Swanline is a risk given the single line and crossing at Tenby and the impact of Swanline on the main line/arrival into Cardiff.  I wonder if its to ensure Carmarthen gets at least 1 train per hour direct to Cardiff on average during the day given some Carmarthen to Cardiff fast services have been axed. 
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2024, 23:05:49 »

Where the CDF» (Cardiff - next trains)-CMN runs are removed, connections could be better - it looks like the CMN - FGH/MFH shuttles have long connection margins for the Londons. I wonder if the shuttles could be retimed, even if it means running off-pattern, except perhaps the that arrives at CMN just before 9am. These workings appear to lay over at CMN for a long time rather than doing anything else - so perhaps the reason is purely cost-cutting or just an idea that an IET (Intercity Express Train) is more than enough provision in those hours.

I note that the change to the HoW(resolve) pattern also means the ad-hoc SWA» (Swansea - next trains)-CMN workings between HoW diagrams have been lost, but they weren't vital for capacity provision.

While some of these changes are perhaps because of paths/capacity not being available yet or a sensible avoidance of more transitional issues, there has perhaps been a demand for reduction of costs compared to the earlier draft.

Quote
Im not a fan of the splitting of services at Swansea either.  But it should work both ways and any Camarthen-Cardiff services should gain extra carriages at Swansea and then back from Cardiff not just the ones that go to/come from Manchester.

It's not the splitting that bothers me, but that it's the 2 car portion that goes through. The colour scheme makes clear that only the Manchesters split at SWA ("orange" shading for the 5 car section) - the portion that goes through to MFH/FGH returns to Cardiff as 2 car throughout, which isn't ideal. I think if the CDF terminators also split/attached at SWA, things would become more complex at SWA; doing it every 2 hours means there's a detachment one hour, then an attachment hte next hour. Diong it every hour would make things messier and delays would propagate easily.

For the SWA-CDF part, some journeys are quiet enough for 2 cars, but many could do with 3 - especially bearing in mind that the non-Manchesters include peak workings (first MFH-CDF and 17xx CDF-MFH). These peak workings both run behind IETs which helps, but can still be quite busy as 2 car, especially when the GWR (Great Western Railway) is disrupted, and the mid-morning workings can be crowded on weekends & school holidays... although ironically that's mitigated here by removing them completely, so passengers have to use the IET either side!

In order to keep things simple it looks like the 2 car would always be at the Manchester end (i.e. 2 cars continuing when splitting at SWA, and 3 cars when later evening workings split at CMN)... it wouldn't be practical to vary this, as the split/join plan would become much more complex, so it has to be always 2 or always 3 continuing past SWA.

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The Pembroke Dock-Swanline is a risk given the single line and crossing at Tenby and the impact of Swanline on the main line/arrival into Cardiff.  I wonder if its to ensure Carmarthen gets at least 1 train per hour direct to Cardiff on average during the day given some Carmarthen to Cardiff fast services have been axed. 

I think that's possibly part of it - the Cardiff pull is a big selling point... but the presence of hte GWR through services covered that need and was part of hte justification. Another factor is that it reduces the number of diagrams needed for Swanline & Pembroke Dock combined. The original draft needed 3 for PMD (as now) and another 3 for hourly Swanline. This arrangement appears to need 4 for the 2-hourly through service, plus some juggling to provide the peak extras. I also note that 153s are to remain on CRE» (Crewe - next trains)-SHR» (Shrewsbury - next trains) stoppers - same shading as HoW - perhaps corresponding to one fewer HoW diagrams being needed?
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2024, 08:46:22 »

Noting references to the Cambrian Coast line - I didn't see the proposed timetables on the site.  Have I missed something?

On the subject of 153s on the Swan Line - don't you double the power if you run them in pairs?  Cheesy
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welsh1980
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2024, 11:08:50 »

I agree, the split doesnt bother me either but from what I hear 197s dont like being split or attached but hopefully that will improve in time.

When the original timetable plans were announced back when TFW first took over the franchise it was said all Swansea-Manchesters would be 5 carriages with less carriages between Swansea-West Wales.  Of course when they decided to get more MK4s, keep some of 153s and get rid of the 170s everything changed with 153s and some 197s replacing the journeys the 170s would have done and the MK4 replacing some 197s on the Manchester-South Wales.

it would be far better if the MK4's turned at Swansea every 2 hours rather than Cardiff, especially as now there is a gap between Carmarthen-Cardiff at various parts of the day. They would still have a through service from Manchester-West Wales the other hour. But it feels like Cardiff-Swansea-Carmarthen passengers lose out every other hour with a gap in service and when it does run 2 carriages instead of the promised 5 cars. It seems Cardiff-Manchester is being prioritised over West of Cardiff as usual.   Services between Swansea-Cardiff are very busy especially on Fridays and Saturdays - plenty of leisure traffic going to Cardiff for the afternoon/evening from around 10am onwards on these days, I dont think they have finalised the Saturday timetable yet but hopefully when they do they will keep the hourly fast TFW service.  Although as you say, if there isnt a train people just wont turn up and will just go for the GWR (Great Western Railway) either side.

When the original plans for the Dec 2023 timetable were released a year or so ago it was said there would be enough 197s to run 5 cars every hour between Swansea-Cardiff, with one hour going through to Manchester with a MK4 Cardiff-Manchester the other hour.  In that case there should be a few spare 197s around to ensure some swanline's are doubled up to 4 cars which will be needed given the extra stops at Pencoed etc and less fast services between Swansea-Cardiff. 

The  plans for Dec 2023 said Maesteg-Ebbw Vale and Cardiff-Cheltenham would all be hourly and have 2 car 197s.  Swanline and Pembroke Dock would remain as 153s until the FLIRTS could take over the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenham routes and then those 197s would be used for Swanline and Pembroke. 

Regarding the Crewe-Shrewsbury stopper that is a bit of a strange one as around this time last year it was a 197 pretty much every day but apparently on paper it was a single 153. I assume as 197's didnt start running to Cardiff until last Summer and to Swansea/Carmarthen last Autumn it was just an easy route to put a 197 on as resources were so stretched and they were cleared from Shrewsbury to Crewe early on.  Apparently now it is booked and usually is a 153.   I had heard that the 153s will also be used on the Crewe stopper as well as a few west wales services long term (along with the HOWL) this is going to mean Crewe has to continue signing 153s? As apparently the plan was just Shrewsbury and Carmathen would sign 153s for the HOWL

Yes the merging of Swanline with Pembroke Dock will save diagrams - another reason why hopefully some of them will be doubled up to 4 cars with all these spare 197s -  but id be concerned any delays will have a knock on effect. Especially as they have to pass each other at Tenby, one delay is likely to have a knock on effect all day then. 

As for the Cambrian i dont really have much knowledge of that line and have never been on it. I have been to Aberystwyth and Barmouth but by road.   But from what i hear the main issue with the Cambrian is overcrowded services in Summer when they are 2 cars.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2024, 11:15:38 by welsh1980 » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2024, 21:30:29 »

The Cambrian point is mentioned somewhere in the explanatory documents - staying with 158s until 2025, so no timetable recast on which to consult.

The Ebbw Vale, Borderlands and Conwy Valley routes are I think omitted as well - probably because there's no tangible change there either; Pembroke Dock isn't properly included except as an origin/destination, with the journeys going "off-table" at Whitland. Ebbw Vale has already gone over to a new timetable that roughly matches the previous draft; this route is alluded to, as most of the Maestegs will run through - and it looks like there will be 3x 3-car & 1x 4-car diagram for EBB-MST. I think the 4 car diagram has shifted from Ebbw Vale to Maesteg peak coverage, but might have misremembered something there.

An interesting point in the blurb is additional workings to Tenby in the summer. That would be tight, as it takes something like 26 minutes to cover the single line WTL-TEN, so along with robustness margins and time there isn't any slack in an hourly service. Missing out the request stops in the additional hours would save a bit of time, as would 197 timing, but this would make a marginal difference. Going a bit off-pattern and not running every single hour could make it feasible, though. Running through to PMD wouldn't work hourly, but trains are much emptier after TEN so that wouldn't be a major issue.

I think I read that Mk4s not running to SWA» (Swansea - next trains) was partly down to the fuel range of the 67s. However there's also the issue that breaking at SWA rather than CDF» (Cardiff - next trains) would break the through journeys between CDF and MFH - bearing in mind that with MFH being 2-hourly, it would lose all its CDF through journeys in one direction (broadly speaking). Retaining the direct service to CDF is probably seen as a much bigger political necessity than hourly to MAN. However it would be good if all MAN services could connect well, which doesn't happen now; I _think_ this will improve in the new tt but not checked properly yet.

Some of those PMD-CDF journeys are running very close to Londons west of SWA as well as being very close behind departing SWA; I think the West Wales resignalling is due for completion soon (this spring/summer perhaps but I've lost track) but even so it looks very tight. The CDF-PMDs also have tight turnarounds at CDF - the down workings are in a sense fine if delayed as they have very long turnarounds at PMD, but the knock-on delay passing at TEN would mean the up train would potentially miss the London connection at SWA and then cause a knock-on delay turning around at CDF. In practice maybe any significantly delayed down workings would end up being held back at WTL to avoid the knock-on delay, at the expense of then being very late onto the branch (thus Delay Repay costs) but recovering during turnaround at PMD.

These hour gaps SWA-CDF aren't great politically, even if on paper the hourly IETs (Intercity Express Train) provide enough seats to match demand. On the other hand, the way trains are flighted in the down direction means there isn't a proper half-hourly down service anyway. In the longer run maybe an additional local service would be useful (providing half-hourly for Pyle, proper metro frequency SWA-GWN-LLE etc) but this would require more funding, not to mention being lower priority in terms of the badly-needed getting the basics right first.

Hopefully any issues with splitting/joining 197s will be reduced by then as there will be a lot of it! The IETs were awful in the early days, with the CMN-PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) often leaving SWA late, but they mostly do it very quickly now...
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2024, 22:50:41 »

For the Cambrian it also says the removal of four services between Machynlleth and Pwllheli (two in each direction).  Im surprised the 158s will still be around into 2025. 

I have had a good look at the timings of Swanline and other Carmarthen-Cardiff services, it looks like the hours there is still a service between Carmarthen-Cardiff it does connect with the MK4 going to Manchester (but only just as its 7 minutes which is the minimum for Cardiff).  The service from West Wales arrives at xx46 and the Manchesters all seem to depart at xx53.  In the hours there isnt a fast service from Carmarthen there is the Swanline which arrives into Cardiff around xx34 and would connect with the MK4.  So not to bad but could be better.  Plus there is the 2 hourly direct service of course.  It would make sense to use that unless one wants to make use of the first class service on the MK4. Looking at the departures from Cardiff to West Wales its even worst than the up journeys.  The hour the Swanline runs is also the same hour a service from Manchester runs through to the West - so we have the GWR (Great Western Railway), TFW fast and TFW stopper all very close together.  Then the other hour when there is no fast services to West Wales there is no Swanline either so just the GWR then an hour gap (aside from the Maesteg).  It is also odd having a departure to Milford and then very close behind it a departure to Pembroke Dock.  Very little terminating at Carmarthen most seem to go through to one of the 3 branch lines.  The 1730 Manchester will run through to Carmarthen though which is very welcome as the loss of the 1830 Manchester-Carmarthen (due to a MK4 running it to Cardiff) meant 1530 was the last direct service to Carmarthen and 1630 the last direct to Swansea. 

Yes Ebbw Vale and the return of the hourly Liverpools were the only things that went ahead from what was initially planned for the Dec 23 timetable and even they were delayed I think. 

Hopefully the extra Tenby services will just be Camarthen-Tenby shuttles and they will be able to cram them into the existing timetable without too many problems.  Good point about holding the PMD trains at Whitland if there are delays, enough recovery time at PMD to compensate for that. 

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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2024, 08:24:05 »

For the Cambrian it also says the removal of four services between Machynlleth and Pwllheli (two in each direction). 

And reading deeper in the slide pack it says

Quote
We will no longer be operating the following services (which are currently in our timetable):
05:07 Machynlleth > Barmouth
06:45 Barmouth > Machynlleth
08:52 Machynlleth > Pwllheli between December and March
11:37 Pwllheli > Machynlleth between December and March

The following journeys will be retimed and only operate between March and December:
21:47 Machynlleth > Pwllheli now ~20:55 Machynlleth > Pwllheli.
20:26 Pwllheli > Machynlleth now ~19:30 Pwllheli > Machynlleth

We intend to use resources freed up to put on more carriages on two of the following three services each way between Birmingham and Pwllheli (by an extra 2 cars between May and September).  We'd appreciate your feedback on which services the extra capacity would be most beneficial ...

Also saves them staff, of course  Grin ... and I think it's in the summer that there are capacity issues ....
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