Flights - Cardiff to London (City)

[whole diary]

[chrisr_75]

plus how long to get to the airport, minimum check-in times and, if Canary Wharf isn't your destination, another 30+minutes at least.....train wins. I can't see it lasting

Plus time to get to station (equal to Cardiff airport for many in S.Wales travelling to London), collect tickets, travel from Paddington to final destination...

I hope it succeeds.

[ChrisB]

You didn't mention the frequency.... :-)

I wonder why.

[Thatcham Crossing]

Not surprised this is continuing for a while....although it's possible we'll see what has happened with the EXT-LCY service, where Flybe started with 3 round-trips a day and gradually shrank it to the "up" (railway terminology!) in the morning, and "down" service in the evening that generally seems to operate at the moment.

The Q400 is known in aviation circles for it's fuel efficiency, and relative speed. I've tracked this flight a few times and it's quiet common for the LCY-CWL sector to be flown in 35-40 mins. The "up" is a bit slower, as it includes a very long arrival route into LCY, which usually includes a tour of north and east Kent!

[chrisr_75]

You didn't mention the frequency.... :-)

I wonder why.

No reason whatsoever, you didn't mention frequency either...

The target market for these flights is business customers, who are most likely to be interested in an arrival before 9am and departure after 5pm - hence why early morning and late afternoon trains and motorways are also at their busiest.

Flybe strike me as a pretty sorted company and unlikely to commit resources on a whim. Plenty of short haul flights are successful at frequencies of 3 return journeys per day or less. Has it struck you they may not be trying to compete directly with the railways, but by running these flights for a trial period have identified a discrete and workable market for themselves?

[ChrisB]

we'll see, won't we.....

[TaplowGreen]

You didn't mention the frequency.... :-)

I wonder why.

No reason whatsoever, you didn't mention frequency either...

The target market for these flights is business customers, who are most likely to be interested in an arrival before 9am and departure after 5pm - hence why early morning and late afternoon trains and motorways are also at their busiest.

Flybe strike me as a pretty sorted company and unlikely to commit resources on a whim. Plenty of short haul flights are successful at frequencies of 3 return journeys per day or less. Has it struck you they may not be trying to compete directly with the railways, but by running these flights for a trial period have identified a discrete and workable market for themselves?

Flybe have got a very popular and successful route from Exeter to London City too.....I agree that they are not consciously directly competing with the railways right now, it will always be niche/discrete however it won't hurt GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to get a kick in the arse to make them look over their shoulder when a proportion of their premium 1st class customers start moving from rail to air.

[IndustryInsider]

Flybe have got a very popular and successful route from Exeter to London City too.....I agree that they are not consciously directly competing with the railways right now, it will always be niche/discrete however it won't hurt GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) to get a kick in the arse to make them look over their shoulder when a proportion of their premium 1st class customers start moving from rail to air.

Am I right in thinking that, apart from Exeter to London City once a day, the only other flights out of Devon and Cornwall to London are from Newquay to either Stansted or Gatwick three or four times a day?  Devon and Cornwall are very poorly connected by air if that is the case!

[ChrisB]

I think it's been a case of use it or lose it - along with Plymouth's City Council's decision on it's airport - but I guess the same might have applied?.

[Thatcham Crossing]

the only other flights out of Devon and Cornwall to London are from Newquay to either Stansted or Gatwick three or four times a day?

Correct II, 3 daily (2 at weekends) between NQY^▸ (Newquay (Station)) and LGW, year round. Daily at present between NQY and STN, but that is a seasonal route which ends (with the airline world's switch of seasons) just before end of October. Flybe haven't published their Summer '17 timetable yet, so don't know if the latter will return next year.

Only other regular, year round, connections from NQY are to Manchester (MAN), and Dublin (DUB, new for this Winter and not daily), not forgetting Skybus to the IoS.

[IndustryInsider]

I think it's been a case of use it or lose it - along with Plymouth's City Council's decision on it's airport - but I guess the same might have applied?.

Correct II, 3 daily (2 at weekends) between NQY^▸ (Newquay (Station)) and LGW, year round. Daily at present between NQY and STN, but that is a seasonal route which ends (with the airline world's switch of seasons) just before end of October. Flybe haven't published their Summer '17 timetable yet, so don't know if the latter will return next year.

Only other regular, year round, connections from NQY are to Manchester (MAN), and Dublin (DUB, new for this Winter and not daily), not forgetting Skybus to the IoS.

Thanks for that.  Sad in a way that there isn't more competition from the airlines as that would keep GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) on their toes more.  Looks like the demand just isn't there?  Looking at a couple of links on-line it appears that Plymouth airport was being kept open for just one operator a couple of times a day, so no wonder it closed.  Increases in rail frequency (and a very modest decrease in journey times) when the AT300s replace the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), and improvements to the Cornish roads, specifically the A30 and A38, will only make that uneven playing field even more uneven in the bias towards rail/road for anything other than a tiny number of air routes.

[TaplowGreen]

I think it's been a case of use it or lose it - along with Plymouth's City Council's decision on it's airport - but I guess the same might have applied?.

It certainly wasn't a lack of use, there was a huge rise in passenger numbers using Plymouth Airport between 2008 - 2009 and the London City flights were phenomenally popular..........I must have used them at least two dozen times and I can rarely recall spare seats............the idiocy on behalf of the operators was selling the London City slots for a fast buck and moving all the "London" flights to Gatwick, which increased journey times into town hugely and also check in times etc.

Most Businesses in Plymouth agree on two things - the airport was vital to the city's prosperity and that road/rail links, particularly to London and the South East are poor.

The flights to destinations other than London never really worked out, but if the airport can be reopened (not particularly likely despite lots of noise) Heathrow may well be prepared to invest - sadly, the land is ideal for housing which is likely to be far more attractive to the (inept) leaseholders/Council looking to make (another) quick buck!

A more forward thinking Council than PCC^▸ (Police and Crime Commissioner) would have looked to develop the airport and increase flights, but that's Plymouth I'm afraid! (I speak as a Janner myself!)

[chrisr_75]

I think it's been a case of use it or lose it - along with Plymouth's City Council's decision on it's airport - but I guess the same might have applied?.

It certainly wasn't a lack of use, there was a huge rise in passenger numbers using Plymouth Airport between 2008 - 2009 and the London City flights were phenomenally popular..........I must have used them at least two dozen times and I can rarely recall spare seats............the idiocy on behalf of the operators was selling the London City slots for a fast buck and moving all the "London" flights to Gatwick, which increased journey times into town hugely and also check in times etc.

Most Businesses in Plymouth agree on two things - the airport was vital to the city's prosperity and that road/rail links, particularly to London and the South East are poor.

The flights to destinations other than London never really worked out, but if the airport can be reopened (not particularly likely despite lots of noise) Heathrow may well be prepared to invest - sadly, the land is ideal for housing which is likely to be far more attractive to the (inept) leaseholders/Council looking to make (another) quick buck!

A more forward thinking Council than PCC^▸ (Police and Crime Commissioner) would have looked to develop the airport and increase flights, but that's Plymouth I'm afraid! (I speak as a Janner myself!)

Some of the points you raise here apply to Cardiff, but in the opposite sense - as many may know the Welsh Assembly Government took over ownership of the airport a couple of years ago and they are very, very keen to increase passenger numbers (somewhat surprisingly they've had some success with this) and to compete with Bristols current stranglehold as the main regional airport, so I suspect the CWL-LCY flights might well receive support, even just moral if not financial, from the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about).

It should also be noted that the vast majority of air routes and airports are operated on a purely commercial basis and receive few of the subsidies that the railways receive.

[TaplowGreen]

Chrisr_75 I wish Flybe and the Welsh Assembly every success - LCY is a great airport and a real gateway into London without being the vast security warehouse of LHR and the package tour hell that is LGW!

[chrisr_75]

Chrisr_75 I wish Flybe and the Welsh Assembly every success - LCY is a great airport and a real gateway into London without being the vast security warehouse of LHR and the package tour hell that is LGW!

I sincerely hope it is a success, I've been of the opinion for a while that a new (there once upon a time used to be a CWL-LHR flight) flight from Cardiff to London and that there is a market there to be exploited. I think it's the kind of headline grabbing service the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) will be keen to retain as long as it works commercially.

I travelled from CWL in May this year to Munich (for onward journey to the Dolomites) and found it to be a most pleasant experience - 50 minute bus ride from my front door to airport, bus stop a 10 minute stroll from terminal door. Check in to departure lounge took all of 5 minutes (yes, seriously!). A few of the 'charter flight' types (sorry for the stereotypes, but you know what I'm getting at...) in the bar but mostly well behaved.

I was deeply sceptical when they first took over, but good work so far WAG!

[LiskeardRich]

I think it's been a case of use it or lose it - along with Plymouth's City Council's decision on it's airport - but I guess the same might have applied?.

Correct II, 3 daily (2 at weekends) between NQY^▸ (Newquay (Station)) and LGW, year round. Daily at present between NQY and STN, but that is a seasonal route which ends (with the airline world's switch of seasons) just before end of October. Flybe haven't published their Summer '17 timetable yet, so don't know if the latter will return next year.

Only other regular, year round, connections from NQY are to Manchester (MAN), and Dublin (DUB, new for this Winter and not daily), not forgetting Skybus to the IoS.

Thanks for that.  Sad in a way that there isn't more competition from the airlines as that would keep GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) on their toes more.  Looks like the demand just isn't there?  Looking at a couple of links on-line it appears that Plymouth airport was being kept open for just one operator a couple of times a day, so no wonder it closed.  Increases in rail frequency (and a very modest decrease in journey times) when the AT300s replace the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), and improvements to the Cornish roads, specifically the A30 and A38, will only make that uneven playing field even more uneven in the bias towards rail/road for anything other than a tiny number of air routes.

Plymouth airport was served by AirSouthWest, owned by Sutton Harbour Holdings. They are also the leaseholders of the airport from Plymouth City Council. Seems anti competition.