Abusive kids who won't buy tickets- what can be done?

[whole diary]

[Graz]

Yesterday (27th Feb), on the 17:28 Warminster-Great Malvern train a group of  5 or so teens (roughly 13-18) ran to the station over the footbridge and boarded at Warminster a few seconds before departure. Approaching Dilton Marsh the conductor arrived and asked for tickets, which they didn't have. All but one refused to buy tickets to Westbury (I heard them say, 'What excuse will we use this time?' before the conductor arrived.)

The conductor asked them to leave at Dilton Marsh, to which they refused and started shouting abuse. The conductor went to open the front doors at Dilton Marsh and have a word with the driver, soon arrived back talking into a phone. The kids twigged what he was doing so they left, still shouting abuse as they left the train. After leaving they continued to shout abuse and one of them started throwing stones/rocks at the conductor, one of which hit the train and the conductor then gave chase, but they ran away. We left about 8 minutes late.

I had a word with the conductor afterwards who said that they are a known group (who I've seen refuse to buy tickets myself on the same train, before) and there are some other known ones at Trowbridge. What was shocking was he said conductors get little support from the British Transport Police / RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), so what on earth can they do against stupid kids like that? Nothing, and the criminals know they have the upper hand. The conductor told me though that the driver took their photos, so hopefully the police may get involved.

This is verbal and physical abuse, not to mention repeated fare evasion and must stop.  People like that are a stain on the British rail system as we know it. Who knows how many other incidents of this nature happen daily? What I think would be a good idea is base BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) at Westbury as it's a major interchange, and they can deal with these evaders and put a stop to these crimes. Perhaps also issue trains with repeated offenders (like the 17:28 wmn-gmv) a BTP officer who can deal with them the next time they arrive. I tried ringing the BTP helpline myself last night but there was no answer, and after sending them an e-mail they said I should ring the helpline! Dear lord...

[vacman]

We have to deal with scum like that every day, and i'm sad to say that the incident you described is far from un common, another sad fact is that the guard can get into trouble for removing them at an unmanned station if the scum in question were under 18, theres no justice! I posted in another thread that there have been a number of RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s recently appointed in Devonand Cornwall which suprisingly are two of the worst areas in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) for fare evasion etc, and i've seen the RPI's out and about on late night trains lately and are doing a sterling job, one other sad fact is that the staff just see incidents like that as "part of the job" when NOBODY deserves to be subjected to that sort of abuse, and all credit to the guard on that train who stood his ground and removed the scum from the train and did not back down! As for the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police), FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ahev produced some "eye witness contact forms" which are worth carrying around with you to fill out and send to the BTP.

[Tickets Please]

why delay all the other people on the train because of the fares of this group.

isnt it company policy not to delay trains over revenue issues ?

the cost to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in delay minutes is far more than the money lost by just taking these children to westbury.

doesnt fgw also have a policy on not detraining people at unmanned stations especially 'vunerable' groups such as children and women on their own.

[tramway]

doesnt fgw also have a policy on not detraining people at unmanned stations especially 'vunerable' groups such as children and women on their own.

'vulnerable' is proabably the last thing these lot were.

You can spot the Trowbridge kids at Bath Spa a mile away, unfortunately. 

[Jim]

doesnt fgw also have a policy on not detraining people at unmanned stations especially 'vunerable' groups such as children and women on their own.

'vulnerable' is proabably the last thing these lot were.

You can spot the Trowbridge kids at Bath Spa a mile away, unfortunately. 

Can you, how's that then?

[tramway]

In no particular order...

extensive (colourful) vocabulary
accent
volume
'interesting' fashion sense. (Shires is a great place to shop)
Mmmm
and 9 times out of 10 I've guessed right.

The majority are ok, don't get me wrong, and I would hate to suggest all Trowbridge youngsters are are liable to make a guards life a misery, but it's not uncommon.

[Jim]

In no particular order...

extensive (colourful) vocabulary
accent
volume
'interesting' fashion sense. (Shires is a great place to shop)
Mmmm
and 9 times out of 10 I've guessed right.

The majority are ok, don't get me wrong, and I would hate to suggest all Trowbridge youngsters are are liable to make a guards life a misery, but it's not uncommon.

I do agree with most actually, being one myself.

[Phil]

It's never a good idea to make assumptions or indeed sweeping generalisations based on appearances. I've experienced it first-hand myself any number of times: I am fortunate enough that the nature of my job enables me to travel first class, but as I wear my hair longer than most and tend to look vaguely scruffy even when wearing a brand new suit (I don't know why this is, but my dear wife gave up trying to do anything about it years ago!), I very often experience the guard politely reminding me that "this is a First Class section, sir..." as I board the train.

There's a guy who looks a bit like a street person, carrying a number of supermarket bags stuffed with bits of paper, who regularly travels to London from Exeter on First Class - I don't recall his name, but apparently he's the founder of the JD Wetherspoon's chain. I  once saw him pay the full peak time First Class single rate from Paddington to Exeter in cash.

Never, ever go by appearances....

[vacman]

why delay all the other people on the train because of the fares of this group.

 

Part of me agrees with you then part of me doesn't, try it another way, why should everyone else pay and not them? there is also the matter of principal, would you tolerate shoplifters in the same way? it's no different! I've never had any problems from control for removing scumbags from the train (delays), and to be honest the first thing control usually want is a description so that they can page it out to other TM^‡(resolve)'s/Conductors!

[moonraker]

[quote author=Graz link=topic=1885.msg13810#msg13810 date=1204200 What I think would be a good idea is base BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) at Westbury as it's a major interchange, and they can deal with these evaders and put a stop to these crimes. Perhaps also issue trains with repeated offenders (like the 17:28 wmn-gmv) a BTP officer who can deal with them the next time they arrive. I tried ringing the BTP helpline myself last night but there was no answer, and after sending them an e-mail they said I should ring the helpline! Dear lord...
[/quote]

BTP used to be based at Westbury and had their own office in the subway opposite to ticket office....... withdrawn on financial grounds....... better deployed elsewhere?.... as it would make sense stategically due to Westbury being a junction, It Will Not Happen !

[Jim]

The local plods take too long to reply to some calls as well!

[Tickets Please]

why delay all the other people on the train because of the fares of this group.

 

Part of me agrees with you then part of me doesn't, try it another way, why should everyone else pay and not them? there is also the matter of principal, would you tolerate shoplifters in the same way? it's no different! I've never had any problems from control for removing scumbags from the train (delays), and to be honest the first thing control usually want is a description so that they can page it out to other TM^‡(resolve)'s/Conductors!

its the guards job to get the train safely from a to b. if you ask someone to buy a ticket and they point blank refuse you walk on and perform your duties to keep the train running to its destination in a timely fashion. accepting that you cant drag people off the train or make them pay whats the point in esculating a situation by being principled. those kids would not have thrown rocks and stuff at the train and the train wouldnt have been delayed by 8 minutes if the guard had not decided to take issue with their ticketless travel, which, with it being a short journey and child fares cant have been worth more than a few quid in total for the whole group.

yes its frustrating when people take the p**s but its not your money, its FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s loss. If they cant be arsed to put systems and support in place for the guard to deal with sitautions like this effectively then thats their look out and loss not the guards.

[vacman]

why delay all the other people on the train because of the fares of this group.

 

Part of me agrees with you then part of me doesn't, try it another way, why should everyone else pay and not them? there is also the matter of principal, would you tolerate shoplifters in the same way? it's no different! I've never had any problems from control for removing scumbags from the train (delays), and to be honest the first thing control usually want is a description so that they can page it out to other TM^‡(resolve)'s/Conductors!

its the guards job to get the train safely from a to b. if you ask someone to buy a ticket and they point blank refuse you walk on and perform your duties to keep the train running to its destination in a timely fashion. accepting that you cant drag people off the train or make them pay whats the point in esculating a situation by being principled. those kids would not have thrown rocks and stuff at the train and the train wouldnt have been delayed by 8 minutes if the guard had not decided to take issue with their ticketless travel, which, with it being a short journey and child fares cant have been worth more than a few quid in total for the whole group.

yes its frustrating when people take the p**s but its not your money, its FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s loss. If they cant be arsed to put systems and support in place for the guard to deal with sitautions like this effectively then thats their look out and loss not the guards.

I see what your saying, but, if safety is the issue then those chavs are not insured to be on the train as they do not hold a valid ticket, also, it may not be the guards money but why should the other passengers who have paid be subsidising scum like that, if the guard had not acted in that way then anyone watching would think they can do it and get away with it.

[Doctor Gideon Ceefax]

Of course if guards and drivers actually do anything, this could be the result.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6962972.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=476707&in_page_id=1770&ito=1490

Several years ago, when I worked suburban commuter trains, I got in a scrap with a youth who thought it would be fair to threaten another passenger after they told them to put a spliff out, then try and force his way into the driving cab to nick my phone when he realised that I was arranging for the plod to meet the train.

Despite the fact that when he was nicked he gave the police a load of mouth, and then a false name and address, I was taken off duty, and questioned at length as to why I used force to remove him from the driving cab. The company's attitude was 'Is there a better way you could have dealt with that situation?'. Short of either 1) leaving my passengers to fend for themselves (a no no) or 2) battering him round the head repeatedly, I couldn't think of anything. It's worth noting that neither could the company.

I later found out this particular piece of vermin was on bail for robbery.

Presumably we are supposed to let them go and sit in first, chat to them about their disaffection with society and get the passengers to contribute a whip round so that we can pay them a tidy sum, if they promise to abide by some 'behavioural contract'.

The really scary thing is, the more of these idiots I encounter, the more I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail!

[mada]

extensive (colourful) vocabulary
accent
volume
'interesting' fashion sense. (Shires is a great place to shop)
(snip)

Edited for accuracy ^^^^

When I was younger I lived there for 10 years and in my opinion the vast majority of residents of Trowbridge are (snip). Obviously there are a few good people there who are let down by the rest but I think the whole country would be better off if this blot was removed from the landscape of this green and pleasant land.

It's never a good idea to make assumptions or indeed sweeping generalisations based on appearances. I've experienced it first-hand myself any number of times: I am fortunate enough that the nature of my job enables me to travel first class, but as I wear my hair longer than most and tend to look vaguely scruffy even when wearing a brand new suit (I don't know why this is, but my dear wife gave up trying to do anything about it years ago!), I very often experience the guard politely reminding me that "this is a First Class section, sir..." as I board the train.

There's a guy who looks a bit like a street person, carrying a number of supermarket bags stuffed with bits of paper, who regularly travels to London from Exeter on First Class - I don't recall his name, but apparently he's the founder of the JD Wetherspoon's chain. I  once saw him pay the full peak time First Class single rate from Paddington to Exeter in cash.

Never, ever go by appearances....

With any luck I'll eventually be in your position Phil! I have long dreadlocks and tend to look vaguely scruffy but I have a professional occupation so I look forward to having my ticket double checked in 1st (when I climb a couple more rungs of the ladder)! Another example of this happening is probably Mookiemoo's thread where the guard asked her to prove she belonged in that particular section.




(Reason for (snip) edits: complaints received over references to inhabitants)