Person hit by train at Tilehurst 8/12

[whole diary]

[Jason]

Needless to say many services are being held at Reading or are being rerouted.

[DidcotPunter]

Relief lines have now reopened. 1B63 Padd-Carmarthen appears to be the train involved.

[broadgage]

When these tragedies occur at a season of widespread cancellations due to staff shortage, how are the delays attributed ?

For example, was the XX-YY cancelled due to a fatality, or would it have been cancelled anyway for want of staff, without the fatality.
If a service is announced as cancelled for lack of staff BEFORE the fatality, then it seems clear cut. But what about afterwards ?

I know it seems a bit callous to enquire, but with fatalities becoming regrettably common, and cancellations for lack of staff even more common, a lot of money must be involved.

[grahame]

Chaos at Paddington.  I left a London even at 19:30 headed for the 20:35 as far as Westbury ... train seems to have disappeared into thin air ... huge crowds on the lawn ... jumped in and grabbed one of the last cheap hotel rooms for the night.

Now ... will tomorrow morning's 06:33 call at Westbury    (yes, I know 3 reasons why not!)

[ChrisB]

When these tragedies occur at a season of widespread cancellations due to staff shortage, how are the delays attributed ?

For example, was the XX-YY cancelled due to a fatality, or would it have been cancelled anyway for want of staff, without the fatality.
If a service is announced as cancelled for lack of staff BEFORE the fatality, then it seems clear cut. But what about afterwards ?

I can only confirm what a different TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) does - once cancelled & fault registered, it would be seen as fraud by the new compensator if it was changed after a different fault occurred. However, once a fatality occurred, for example, any cancellation would be put down to that, rather than a staff shortage which would be unlikely to be owned up too, assuming it would be accepted under normal conditions. It could still be delayed by the disruption, of course.

Fatalities, I think unfairly, is put down to Network Rail. I would accept a 'no fault' for those, but that can't happen in current regulations - nit seems every delay/cancellation has to be attributed.

I know it seems a bit callous to enquire, but with fatalities becoming regrettably common, and cancellations for lack of staff even more common, a lot of money must be involved.
[/quote]

[ellendune]

I know it seems a bit callous to enquire, but with fatalities becoming regrettably common, and cancellations for lack of staff even more common, a lot of money must be involved.

I know that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) have put a great deal of money and time with the Samaritans to try and reduces suicides.  Some might say that is the result of the incentive that the delay minute charges give.  This would suggest that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would do nothing and that the delay minutes should be shared. However, we know that TOCs have also put time and money in themselves which either suggests some altruism on their part (doing something regardless of cost) or there are other hidden costs that incentivise them to do it.

[NickB]

The staff at Paddington are still blaming this incident forcancellations to LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) whichwhen challenged they don’t understand. Paddington is a total disaster tonight.

[TonyK]

I know that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) have put a great deal of money and time with the Samaritans to try and reduces suicides.  Some might say that is the result of the incentive that the delay minute charges give.  This would suggest that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would do nothing and that the delay minutes should be shared. However, we know that TOCs have also put time and money in themselves which either suggests some altruism on their part (doing something regardless of cost) or there are other hidden costs that incentivise them to do it.

The welfare of their staff, surely. If not, and if the TOCs are motivated purely by cash, a wish to minimise stress-related sick absence.

[NickB]

So on a night where a suicide has coincided with a lack of train drivers it’s unfortunate to be on the receiving end of a borderline “everything is cancelled” service from Paddington. When the shit hits the fan will drivers contribute more or is this the best to expect?

[JayMac]

I know that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) have put a great deal of money and time with the Samaritans to try and reduces suicides.  Some might say that is the result of the incentive that the delay minute charges give.  This would suggest that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would do nothing and that the delay minutes should be shared. However, we know that TOCs have also put time and money in themselves which either suggests some altruism on their part (doing something regardless of cost) or there are other hidden costs that incentivise them to do it.

The Samaritans recently released a very poignant and moving video about railway suicides. Made in conjunction with Network Rail, British Transport Police, and the Rail Delivery Group.


https://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/our-campaigns/small-talk-saves-lives/sarah

Incidentally, filmed at Reading Station.

A personal opinion. I don't think we should be conflating the incident in this thread with the ongoing driver shortages. We have a separate topic for that.

[grahame]

So on a night where a suicide has coincided with a lack of train drivers it’s unfortunate to be on the receiving end of a borderline “everything is cancelled” service from Paddington. When the shit hits the fan will drivers contribute more or is this the best to expect?

A personal opinion. I don't think we should be conflating the incident in this thread with the ongoing driver shortages. We have a separate topic for that.

1. By the law of averages, it was probably a suicide but we should not be making that assumption.

2. "Person hit by train" and its aftermath incidents do in themselves lead to a short term driver shortage at the right place at the right time (train manager and train shortage too) and also in most cases to a reduction by one in the number of drivers available for a while.  General ongoing driver shortages - yes, sensible to discuss separately, but the effect of incidents last night (including the question of delay attribution where a service can't run for two reasons) may be logical here, or in separate threads which look at the generality rather than continuing to highlight particular incidents.   No "rules" here - just suggestions.

Edit to add

When the shit hits the fan will drivers contribute more or is this the best to expect?

I suspect that the majority do their very best within rules such as limit hours.  I would have to see a further incident caused by driver fatigue, and with so much out of place and abnormal working around the original incident, there's bigger opportunity than normal for something else to happen.

[Electric train]

I know that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) have put a great deal of money and time with the Samaritans to try and reduces suicides.  Some might say that is the result of the incentive that the delay minute charges give.  This would suggest that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would do nothing and that the delay minutes should be shared. However, we know that TOCs have also put time and money in themselves which either suggests some altruism on their part (doing something regardless of cost) or there are other hidden costs that incentivise them to do it.

The welfare of their staff, surely. If not, and if the TOCs are motivated purely by cash, a wish to minimise stress-related sick absence.

I have yet to come across ANYONE in the rail industry that see the death of someone on the railway as a "motivation" to earn cash.

There is a genuine desire in the rail industry to help people who may be in a dark place in their life; yes it does help reduce delay costs but it also costs money I believe Samaritans get some funding from the rail industry there is the cost of providing preventive measures, platform fencing, lighting, signs, platform hatch marking and even staff to patrol certain areas

[ellendune]

I know that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) have put a great deal of money and time with the Samaritans to try and reduces suicides.  Some might say that is the result of the incentive that the delay minute charges give.  This would suggest that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) would do nothing and that the delay minutes should be shared. However, we know that TOCs have also put time and money in themselves which either suggests some altruism on their part (doing something regardless of cost) or there are other hidden costs that incentivise them to do it.

The welfare of their staff, surely. If not, and if the TOCs are motivated purely by cash, a wish to minimise stress-related sick absence.

I have yet to come across ANYONE in the rail industry that see the death of someone on the railway as a "motivation" to earn cash.

There is a genuine desire in the rail industry to help people who may be in a dark place in their life; yes it does help reduce delay costs but it also costs money I believe Samaritans get some funding from the rail industry there is the cost of providing preventive measures, platform fencing, lighting, signs, platform hatch marking and even staff to patrol certain areas

I was NOT suggesting that the industry was motivated by cash.  Quite the opposite!

What I was saying - perhaps not very well - was that it was clear that since the TOCs were acting quite outside the economic model the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) has bestowed on the rail industry it was clear that they were not acting because of any cash incentive, but out of altruism.  I would also suggest that NR too have gone well beyond what one might have expected from a money driven incentive.   

[JayMac]

A personal opinion. I don't think we should be conflating the incident in this thread with the ongoing driver shortages. We have a separate topic for that.

1. By the law of averages, it was probably a suicide but we should not be making that assumption.

In responding this way it looks like you are saying I've made such an assumption. I was very careful to say 'incident'. This is how I always try to refer to 'person hit by train' occurrences on this forum in the immediate aftermath. I'm well aware that these incidents are not officially suicide until a coroner's inquest is complete.

[grahame]

A personal opinion. I don't think we should be conflating the incident in this thread with the ongoing driver shortages. We have a separate topic for that.

1. By the law of averages, it was probably a suicide but we should not be making that assumption.

In responding this way it looks like you are saying I've made such an assumption.

It does, and I had no such intent.   I put two quotes at the top of my post, then answered them with "1" and "2" below - first answer to first quote, second answer to second quote.   Reading back, there was insufficient distinction of what I was answering where for it to be clear, and I apologise for any mis-association that may have been made - sorry.

I'm well aware that these incidents are not officially suicide until a coroner's inquest is complete.

Not only "officially" but there are other "person hit by trains". I can recall which include pushed, passed out on platform or tripped and fell in front of train, trying to get dog off track, failure to observe level crossing rules, and track worker not altered to oncoming train.