Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here].
Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
 today - Somerset Consultation closes
tomorrow - Bus consultation closes
tomorrow - RCTS / Windsor & Maidenhead
26/09/2018 - Bristol transport strategy .
28/09/2018 - Ask a stupid question day
29/09/2018 - IWA AGM Stonehouse
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail News GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
September 23, 2018, 06:03:47 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[90] Walking Britain's Lost Railways
[89] Labour could renationalise railways in five years
[81] Major disruption Bristol Newport 22/9/2018
[62] Bristol Transport Strategy Consultation / Launch Event 26/09/2...
[56] Longer trains to Waterloo ??
[40] Buffet Cars
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: "They don't have major holiday weekend signal failures in the rest of Europe"..?  (Read 3153 times)
SandTEngineer
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2267


In a Linemans Hut in the far Southwest


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2017, 02:23:54 pm »

Hi Stuving, as its a long time since I did french at school have you found an English translation anywhere?
Logged

Out of this nettle, Danger, we pluck this flower, Safety.
[Henry IV, Part 1, Act 2, Scene 3]
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3346


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2017, 07:51:40 pm »

Hi Stuving, as its a long time since I did french at school have you found an English translation anywhere?

No, and I'm sure there won't be in this case. For one thing it seems not to be on SNCF's own web site, only the ministry's one. (That's the ministry of the ecological and solidaire transition - and there's no English for that as we lack the French notion of solidarité.)

The media have been merrily putting their boots in on this, and it looks as if the useless communication to the public is what will be remembered most. Two specific examples:

One train, I'm not sure which day (but not the Sunday), was shown as cancelled on line, by phone it was leaving from Austerlitz, and on Twitter it would leave on time from Montparnasse. It left from Montparnasse, but 1:10 late and unsurprisingly with many empty seats.

A TGV through Brittany stopped short at Auray (not quite a village, but..) at 20:30, so its passengers had to await the next. SNCF staff were sure one would arrive, but had no idea when, and after four hours (thus at 00:30) it had still not turned up. So those waiting were sent off to a (paid-for) hotel, though the train did in fact arrive at 01:30. So internal communications were not much better.

As to the technical side, I still can't fathom how it can be impossible to localise a fault at all within the whole poste, before disconnecting everything a bit at a time. It was also said that the racks of equipment did not map onto the track, so there was no way to take half of it off-line and still use half of the tracks into the station. Maybe 7-day railway was not a known concept here in the 1980s either, but I'm sure the general idea had been thought of.
Logged
SandTEngineer
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2267


In a Linemans Hut in the far Southwest


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2017, 09:53:34 pm »

Thanks.  Shame its not though as I'm sure it would be a good (technical) read..... Roll Eyes  However, I think I can understand some of the basics of what went wrong.  When I have digested it a bit more I will try and explain it in not too technical terms Wink
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 05:09:08 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged

Out of this nettle, Danger, we pluck this flower, Safety.
[Henry IV, Part 1, Act 2, Scene 3]
Worcester_Passenger
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1109


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2017, 11:25:09 am »

Go to Stuving's link and write down the title. Come back to your browser and you type the title into Google, then you'll get the link again, but this time with a 'Translate' option. Clicking on that gives you a start on the English. But ... be aware that it's not very good (understatement) when it comes to very technical terms.

Company staff out on the concourse dealing with the passengers are translated as "waistcoats". But you know what they mean.
Logged
chuffed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1094


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2017, 06:10:41 pm »

Go to Stuving's link and write down the title. Come back to your browser and you type the title into Google, then you'll get the link again, but this time with a 'Translate' option. Clicking on that gives you a start on the English. But ... be aware that it's not very good (understatement) when it comes to very technical terms.

Company staff out on the concourse dealing with the passengers are translated as "waistcoats". But you know what they mean.

Well I suppose that's better than 'Ribena' girls ...never did see any Ribena guys tho.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3346


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2017, 12:16:12 am »

Thanks.  Shame its not though as I'm sure it would be a good (technical) read..... Roll Eyes  However, I think I can understand some of the basics of what went wrong.  When I have digested it a bit more I will try and explain it in not too technical terms Wink

I find it's not the jargon that's the problem - mostly that has only one meaning, and can be looked up (e.g. enclenchement=interlockiing or d’astreinte=on call). It's more the words with multiple ordinary meanings, used in a particular idiom. And often - like those gilets rouges - they are easier to cope with untranslated.

Having looked at it again, I can work out that in the system's label of PRCI-PVSI, PRCI means it had computer route-setting (remote, in this case) and relay interlocking. PVSI I have not found. Note that it is seen, in the continental fashion, as implementing 150 routes (itineraires) directly and interlocking them rather than point settings.

The fault is described as on the power supply (24V), and capable of changing a signal state - so presumably not to ground. I still do not see how its first appearance can be as "fleeting insulation/isolation" - I guess faute is missing there. But if that does mean a fleeting intermittent fault, would isolating a rack of relays to test it have a high chance of finding the fault? 

If you are struggling with any words, let me know and I'll try to help.
Logged
Electric train
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2971


The future is 25,000 Volts a.c.


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2017, 08:00:19 am »


The fault is described as on the power supply (24V), and capable of changing a signal state - so presumably not to ground. I still do not see how its first appearance can be as "fleeting insulation/isolation" - I guess faute is missing there. But if that does mean a fleeting intermittent fault, would isolating a rack of relays to test it have a high chance of finding the fault? 

Signalling supplies tend to be earth free, IT - Isolate Tera (sorry more French) and not TN Tera Neutral or TT Tera Tera systems.  The reason it allows a first earth fault to happen without blowing a fuse. IT systems do rely on good insulation monitoring.  The risks as high impeadance earth faults or fleeting earth faults when a second earth fault happens.

I am sure S&T Engineer will agree trying to locate a fault can take a long time, the charging down blind allies often happends especially when presure is being applied. 

Posibly the question that should be asked is not why the fault happened or what the fault was, as that is a matter of fact, but SNCF should be asking how they managed the faulting process and the management of the wider incident.
Logged

Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3346


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2018, 08:48:59 pm »

As a follow-up to this string of ... difficulties, the bosses of SNCF and its network bit (Pepy and Jeantet) were summoned today to stand on the minister's naughty carpet (she's Élisabeth Borne, previously head of RATP but also both a préfet and a socialist politico). To recap, there was the big signals upgrade overrun in July, plus a couple of smaller ones before that, both at Montparnasse, and also a software upgrade that did much the same to St Lazare in December. The problem just before Christmas was more a matter of ticketing and PR, but all of these raised the well-known complaint of no or wrong information.

After this meeting, some concrete plans were announced for work on that information process, including weekly publication of data on train problems and the cause, and something like the red/amber/yellow weather alert system applied to railway "storms".

The main plan, however, makes no sense: it is to do an audit of the robustness of the system and make a shopping list of investments to improve it. Now that would no doubt help with some of the "routine"problems, like broken OLE and signals. But the biggies are due to doing upgrades, so surely the need is for a better plan for doing that, not a bigger list of things to do. Bearing in mind that Paris does have some spare terminal capacity at all times, and linking lines to use it, I would suggest something like this:

1. Rebuilding the systems bit by bit, with whole railway back working after each step, is bound to go wrong sometimes. To avoid the overruns, you'd need to close large chunks of the network for months, or allow several days each time with the "closures service" operating. Neither would keep the commuting bunnies happy.

2. But such issue only happen rarely. So go public on all of that, and say "we'll keep that recovery period as short as we can, provided you accept that once in a while it'll have to be extended". You publish a limited service plan that could be used for several days, and promise 3 hours notice that you are reverting to the normal timetable (as passenger need to go to different stations). In most cases this reversion happens overnight, so everyone knows by the night before. That gets round the issue of a control room full of headless chickens improvising a service and issue contradictory messages to the waiting public.

It would at least be interesting to see how it went down, and whether the meejah in France would help to get the message across or (as here) not.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants