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Author Topic: Hydrogen Trains  (Read 6375 times)
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2018, 08:47:05 pm »

Hydrogen? I don't know about that. I recently acquired some early 1930s Cycling magazines and they've filled me with a curious desire for acetylene lighting. Just to try, like.
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Tony (Formerly FT, N!)
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2018, 10:38:09 pm »

Hydrogen? I don't know about that. I recently acquired some early 1930s Cycling magazines and they've filled me with a curious desire for acetylene lighting. Just to try, like.

Acetylene is being looked at as one possible end-product of the process to remove CO2 from the atmosphere in the International Space Station. The process being tested with a view to travel to Mars initially produced methane, which was vented to space. It needs hydrogen  to do this, and processing the methane to acetylene ties less hydrogen to the carbon molecules, so needing less to start the process. Simples! Your cyclists were ahead of their time, if they only knew it!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 10:59:43 pm by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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stuving
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2018, 10:48:59 pm »

Acetylene is being looked at as one possible end-product of the process to remove CO2 from the atmosphere in the International Space Station. The process being tested with a view to travel to Mars initially produced methane, which was vented to space. It needs hydrogen  to do this, and processing the methane to acetylene ties more hydrogen to the carbon molecules, so needing less to start the process. Simples! Your cyclists were ahead of their time, if they only knew it!

I think you mean acetylene ties less hydrogen to the same amount of carbon - one atom per atom, rather than four.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2018, 11:59:32 pm »

Hydrogen? I don't know about that. I recently acquired some early 1930s Cycling magazines and they've filled me with a curious desire for acetylene lighting. Just to try, like.

You really must! I have an acetylene bicycle lamp, and it puts out a very good even light. Sadly, it weighs about the same as a modern bicycle... you can even get a fitting to tee off to a rear lamp, via a length of rubber hose. I also used to use an acetylene cap lamp back in my caving days; it had some advantages over the electric lamps most people use (you can usually find water down a cave, and you can carry spare carbide) but climbing wire ladders could be a painful, hand-singeing experience. Happy days...
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stuving
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« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2018, 12:15:09 pm »

If you want a more widely fixed distributed energy storage system, for places without suitable mountain-top lakes, Gravitricity are proposing to dangle big weights over deep holes and wind them up and down. Using their numbers (say 2000 Tonnes and 1000 m), a simple sum says the energy stored is relatively modest for one of them, but it still might be helpful.

I'm less convinced when they say it is "guided by a system of tensioned guide wires (patents applied for)" - so very different from the usual way of guiding mineshaft cages, with tensioned wires, then? And what about the vexatious tendency of deep holes in this country to fill up with water, and need continuous pumping? That's always been one of the biggest costs of mining, so I wonder why they say not one word about it?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 03:36:34 pm by stuving » Logged
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2018, 03:32:11 pm »

a simple sum...

That's easy for you to say! I make the p.e. of the system you describe to be 19620MJ, which I think translates as 5.45MWh or about two hours' output from an offshore wind turbine, by my reckoning. For comparison, a Tesla Powerpack grid storage battery has a capacity of 210kWh, so you'd need about 26 of them to store the same amount of energy. I suspect there's room in this world for doing it either way, plus any one of a thousand others, but the 'clock weight' system could presumably be incorporated into new high-rise buildings at a modest cost.

One of the things I really like about this accelerating movement away from the caveman way of doing things (Me burn stuff! Ug!) is that it's just so much more interesting..!

I won't be offended if anyone wants to challenge my maths!
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Tony (Formerly FT, N!)
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« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2018, 10:57:31 pm »

I think you mean acetylene ties less hydrogen to the same amount of carbon - one atom per atom, rather than four.

So I did! Thanks - I've corrected it.
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Tony (Formerly FT, N!)
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« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2018, 11:03:33 pm »


That's easy for you to say! I make the p.e. of the system you describe to be 19620MJ, which I think translates as 5.45MWh or about two hours' output from an offshore wind turbine, by my reckoning.

I once suffered a rapid decrease in potential energy on the way home from the pub...
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Trowres
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« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2018, 11:25:39 pm »

I think Mr Grayling was referring to trains running on HS2, but his transcript omitted the S.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2018, 11:43:42 pm »

I once suffered a rapid decrease in potential energy on the way home from the pub...

Once you leave the pub, it's downhill all the way...
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stuving
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« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2018, 10:20:41 pm »

If you want a more widely fixed distributed energy storage system, for places without suitable mountain-top lakes, Gravitricity are proposing to dangle big weights over deep holes and wind them up and down. Using their numbers (say 2000 Tonnes and 1000 m), a simple sum says the energy stored is relatively modest for one of them, but it still might be helpful.

And here's another thing - it goes up instead of down, and when it's stored all the enrgy it can in one weight it just picks up another one. This is from Quartz:
Quote
Stacking concrete blocks is a surprisingly efficient way to store energy
Bill Gross, a long-time US entrepreneur, and Andrea Pedretti, a serial Swiss inventor, developed the Energy Vault system that applies this science. Here’s how it works: A 120-meter (nearly 400-foot) tall, six-armed crane stands in the middle. In the discharged state, concrete cylinders weighing 35 metric tons each are neatly stacked around the crane far below the crane arms. When there is excess solar or wind power, a computer algorithm directs one or more crane arms to locate a concrete block, with the help of a camera attached to the crane arm’s trolley.

Energy Vault  Simulation of a large-scale Energy Vault plant.

Once the crane arm locates and hooks onto a concrete block, a motor starts, powered by the excess electricity on the grid, and lifts the block off the ground. Wind could cause the block to move like a pendulum, but the crane’s trolley is programmed to counter the movement. As a result, it can smoothly lift the block, and then place it on top of another stack of blocks—higher up off the ground.

The system is “fully charged” when the crane has created a tower of concrete blocks around it. The total energy that can be stored in the tower is 20 megawatt-hours (MWh), enough to power 2,000 Swiss homes for a whole day.

When the grid is running low, the motors spring back into action—except now, instead of consuming electricity, the motor is driven in reverse by the gravitational energy, and thus generates electricity.

And there's a video of their demonstrator, though it's only doing what any tower crane would.
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stuving
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« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2018, 11:10:53 pm »

The Coradia iLint trains mentioned in reply #3 appeared in passenger serrvice on Monday (17/9/18). Publicity for this milestone was pushed quite hard by Alstom, and got a lot of coverage in France (on the grounds Alstom is French, even if the bit in Salzgittern that built the trains isn't). There was a bit of news reporting from outside Europe, but nothing I can see in Britain - despite the first users (allegedly) being Ian and Diana Henry, a "young retired couple from Lower Saxony" (Le Monde).

The date was picked to coincide with with a train trade fair, so it may not be a proper start of service. They currently have just one or two trains, to be followed by 14 more of the 14 trains ordered for delivery by 2021. I guess that means the ones they have been running so far are prototyypes, so this can only be a limited start.

One of the odder comments from Alstom was that their first hydrogen trains in France would be tram-trains, to make it easier to get approval for them.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 11:16:05 pm by stuving » Logged
Kernow Otter
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« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2018, 08:19:43 am »

Hydrogen? I don't know about that. I recently acquired some early 1930s Cycling magazines and they've filled me with a curious desire for acetylene lighting. Just to try, like.

You really must! I have an acetylene bicycle lamp, and it puts out a very good even light. Sadly, it weighs about the same as a modern bicycle... you can even get a fitting to tee off to a rear lamp, via a length of rubber hose. I also used to use an acetylene cap lamp back in my caving days; it had some advantages over the electric lamps most people use (you can usually find water down a cave, and you can carry spare carbide) but climbing wire ladders could be a painful, hand-singeing experience. Happy days...

I still have my caving carbide lamp somewhere.  It was lovely and gave a special ambience to being underground, although soot stained stalagmites were a possibility at times.  Happy days
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grahame
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« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2018, 04:13:44 am »

In promoting this Grayling seems to be ignoring the high cost of producing hydrogen as well as the possible safety issues relating to a high pressure container of highly flammable gas.  Is he clutching at straws to justify his stance on electification?

From the BBC yesterday

Quote
Trains powered by hydrogen could be a reality in the UK by the "early 2020s", according to Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.

They're seen as a cleaner - but pricier - alternative to diesel trains, as the exhaust emission is pure water.

The BBC's Roger Harrabin reports from Germany, where hydrogen trains are already running.
29 Oct 2018

Has technology move on in the last month to answer questions like:

1. How will the hydrogen be economically prepared?

2. More costly - in initial purchase or running, and who's going to pay?

3. Will timetables need to be altered to give refuelling time?

4. Will heavier trains mean they can't be used on some lighter branches?

5. Will the bigger on-train plant fit into the UK loading gauge?

6. Will in be safe?

Or are we relying  on research to solve some or all of those?
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welshman
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« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2018, 01:40:31 pm »

If Grayling is promoting the concept, his track record means that there must be a serious flaw in it. 

Actually running hydrogen powered trains is not a bad idea.  What is not being answered is how the hydrogen is prepared (to use Grahame's word) and what environmental impact that has.
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