Severn Beach Fares

[whole diary]

[Celestial]

Took two of the youngest members of the family to Bristol Zoo last week for half term.  I don't like driving in Bristol, and the train via Temple Meads is a long way round, so caught the service from Severn Beach.

Expected to pay around £8 return for the three of us with railcard and was amazed it was only £3.30.  On checking the normal adult fare is only £2, for around 10 miles each way.  (STJ^▸ (Severn Tunnel Junction railway station) to Newport is £6 for a similar distance.) I even got over £10 off our Zoo tickets by showing the rail tickets and didn't have to pay for parking.

It seems far too cheap a fare.  Surely if it was a more sensible level then they could justify having a better service (the two hour gap was a bit inconvenient coming back).   

[grahame]

Took two of the youngest members of the family to Bristol Zoo last week for half term.  I don't like driving in Bristol, and the train via Temple Meads is a long way round, so caught the service from Severn Beach.

Expected to pay around £8 return for the three of us with railcard and was amazed it was only £3.30.  On checking the normal adult fare is only £2, for around 10 miles each way.  (STJ^▸ (Severn Tunnel Junction railway station) to Newport is £6 for a similar distance.) I even got over £10 off our Zoo tickets by showing the rail tickets and didn't have to pay for parking.

It seems far too cheap a fare.  Surely if it was a more sensible level then they could justify having a better service (the two hour gap was a bit inconvenient coming back).   

Fares on the Severn Beach line got set at a low rate to encourage traffic and there was no mechanism to update them so they are now lower than they should be for a working financial model. Problem is that if you put them up to a "meaningful level" you 'll make an awful lot of people who can present a case very well rather angry.

[Celestial]

Took two of the youngest members of the family to Bristol Zoo last week for half term.  I don't like driving in Bristol, and the train via Temple Meads is a long way round, so caught the service from Severn Beach.

Expected to pay around £8 return for the three of us with railcard and was amazed it was only £3.30.  On checking the normal adult fare is only £2, for around 10 miles each way.  (STJ^▸ (Severn Tunnel Junction railway station) to Newport is £6 for a similar distance.) I even got over £10 off our Zoo tickets by showing the rail tickets and didn't have to pay for parking.

It seems far too cheap a fare.  Surely if it was a more sensible level then they could justify having a better service (the two hour gap was a bit inconvenient coming back).   

Fares on the Severn Beach line got set at a low rate to encourage traffic and there was no mechanism to update them so they are now lower than they should be for a working financial model. Problem is that if you put them up to a "meaningful level" you 'll make an awful lot of people who can present a case very well rather angry.

That's interesting Grahame.  Thank you.  You would hope that the clear facts should override a few angry people but I know it doesn't always work like that.

[Red Squirrel]

Fares on the Severn Beach line got set at a low rate to encourage traffic and there was no mechanism to update them so they are now lower than they should be for a working financial model. Problem is that if you put them up to a "meaningful level" you 'll make an awful lot of people who can present a case very well rather angry.

Severn Beach line fares are zonal, so Montpelier - Redland (about 750m each way) is also £2 return - which seems less of a bargain.

I suspect that patronage on this line might well be pretty sensitive to a fares increase - it is remarkable that the line is as well-used as it is, given the 40-minute basic service and the under-invested state of its stations.

When the track is re-doubled, and a 15-minute frequency introduced as far as Avonmouth (or round the Henbury Loop!) then we can perhaps look at fares - though as a point of principle I'd rather see other fares reduced to match.

[johnneyw]

In addition, although perhaps slightly improved from before, revenue protection on the line is still fairly leaky.

[Celestial]

Fares on the Severn Beach line got set at a low rate to encourage traffic and there was no mechanism to update them so they are now lower than they should be for a working financial model. Problem is that if you put them up to a "meaningful level" you 'll make an awful lot of people who can present a case very well rather angry.

Severn Beach line fares are zonal, so Montpelier - Redland (about 750m each way) is also £2 return - which seems less of a bargain.

I suspect that patronage on this line might well be pretty sensitive to a fares increase - it is remarkable that the line is as well-used as it is, given the 40-minute basic service and the under-invested state of its stations.

When the track is re-doubled, and a 15-minute frequency introduced as far as Avonmouth (or round the Henbury Loop!) then we can perhaps look at fares - though as a point of principle I'd rather see other fares reduced to match.

Why should this line in particular be sensitive to a fares increase, except that passengers have got used to it?  And a 40 minute service is better than Yate, or Caldicot, or Melksham, or numerous other stations that have "normal fares", so I don't think that's a good argument.
And I don't think anyone would suggest lowering all other GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) fares in order to level them out with the Severn Beach Line, as that would be a completely disproportionate way to solve the anomaly.
Re the zonal fare point, that's a fair point, although in many places (eg Cardiff) you can pay £2 to go one stop , so maybe it's not an unreasonable fare to pay after all.  Though from johnneyw's point, I suspect you are 100% likely to pay for a ticket on the bus and fairly unlikely to pay for one stop on the Severn Beach line, even if you are not trying to fare dodge, as you won't see the guard in time.

[Red Squirrel]

In addition, although perhaps slightly improved from before, revenue protection on the line is still fairly leaky.

Don't get me started...

Why should this line in particular be sensitive to a fares increase, except that passengers have got used to it?

For exactly that reason.

And a 40 minute service is better than Yate, or Caldicot, or Melksham, or numerous other stations that have "normal fares", so I don't think that's a good argument.
And I don't think anyone would suggest lowering all other GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) fares in order to level them out with the Severn Beach Line, as that would be a completely disproportionate way to solve the anomaly.

Perhaps I could have been more clear: I am in favour of improving services and lowering fares. All fares are subsidised, but some are more subsidised than others. I'd be happy to pay more tax to subsidise fares and increase frequencies for services to Yate, Melksham or Caldicot. Isn't it better to try to even things up with the best, rather than the worst?

[WelshBluebird]

As someone who often uses this line, I have to agree with the revenue protection issue on the route. There are no TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s at most of the stations, and the stops are so close together it is tough for the staff to sell tickets to everyone who needs one. That is before you look at those who try to actively avoid paying.

When the track is re-doubled, and a 15-minute frequency introduced as far as Avonmouth (or round the Henbury Loop!)

Oh we can hope! haha.

Why should this line in particular be sensitive to a fares increase, except that passengers have got used to it?  And a 40 minute service is better than Yate, or Caldicot, or Melksham, or numerous other stations that have "normal fares", so I don't think that's a good argument.

I think for me (as I said, I use the line fairly often):

• Because the service is often irregular (it isn't just every 40 mins, it is much more irregular with some 30 min gaps and some 50 min gaps, and no doubt some others too) and prone to delays and part cancellations (thanks to the single track), the low fares are quite important in keeping people using the trains rather than decided to give up and use another method of transport.
• Much of the most well used parts of the line are pretty close to the City Centre / Temple Meads - many people decide to use the train instead of the bus or walk simply because it is so cheap you may aswell. Increase the fares too much and you lose that.
  

[grahame]

Because the service is often irregular (it isn't just every 40 mins, it is much more irregular with some 30 min gaps and some 50 min gaps, and no doubt some others too)

Yeah ... the 96 minute one I always seem to hit when I finish a meeting near Clifton Down!

[chuffed]

Did a return journey Clifton Down to Severn Beach on a recent Saturday afternoon. TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Clifton Down out of order. It was busy at every station.No sign of any member of staff, apart from the driver who was operating the train. If GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are not that fussed about collecting fares, it is no wonder there seemed to be so many people enjoying a free ride.

[WelshBluebird]

Did a return journey Clifton Down to Severn Beach on a recent Saturday afternoon. TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Clifton Down out of order. It was busy at every station.No sign of any member of staff, apart from the driver who was operating the train. If GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are not that fussed about collecting fares, it is no wonder there seemed to be so many people enjoying a free ride.

There are some staff that are very good! The woman who is usually the guard on the 8.21 MTP - BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) for example (it does make me wonder how rotas are worked out because nearly every time I get that train, usually 3 times a week, the same person is the guard) who manages to make her way through most of the train despite the short time between stops and the business of that service.  But in general I agree, at least there should be TVM's on more of the stations etc.

[Robin Summerhill]

There are some staff that are very good! The woman who is usually the guard on the 8.21 MTP - BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) for example (it does make me wonder how rotas are worked out because nearly every time I get that train, usually 3 times a week, the same person is the guard)

Way back in BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days when I worked for the railway, the Severn Beach line was used in some cases to find employment for green carded men (ie medically unfit). There was a conductor guard by name of Fred Filer whose regular turn of duty in the 1970s was to come on at 1605 and be an assistant on fare collection in the evening peak.

To be honest however I have no idea how rostering works in this day and age so this post might be irrelevant to the issue being discussed, or it could of course be a pointer to what is going on in your example.

[Red Squirrel]

Revenue collection on the Severn Beach is an enigma.

On more than one occasion I have caught an evening train to Temple Meads on which patronage was sufficiently light that the conductor/guard could without doubt have collected the fares, but they stayed resolutely in the rear cab. After queuing for what seems like an interminable time to pay for a ticket at Temple Meads, I ask why the conductor doesn't take the fares: apparently they are too busy ensuring the safety of the train! Well, that's one explanation... hard to argue when 'the railway' cites safety as a reason, isn't it?

Often in the morning heading out of town, there will be a conductor on the train who is dropped off at Redland and goes around collecting fares from people waiting for the inbound train. That makes a lot of sense, as not only does it secure a bit of revenue from people heading for Stapleton Road (of which there can be quite a few) but it also saves passengers going all the way that interminable queue at Temple Meads.

I've known there to be as many as three people selling tickets on a Beach line train, many of them to schoolchildren. Given the level of fares, you can't help wondering how this works out financially. But very often there is no opportunity to buy a ticket.

Hopefully MetroWest - if and when it happens - will address this issue.

[johnneyw]

So the given explanation for the conductor/guard staying in the rear cab for safety issues on some services but not on others rather implies that there is some peril on some services that we passengers are not privy to. Should we be told or is ignorance bliss? 

[grahame]

So the given explanation for the conductor/guard staying in the rear cab for safety issues on some services but not on others rather implies that there is some peril on some services that we passengers are not privy to. Should we be told or is ignorance bliss? 

The biggest risk to passengers of getting hurt / injured on a train journey isn't from the railway, but from other passengers - either accidentally or by assault.   Perhaps there's a similar statistic for train managers, and the peril being avoided is the risk of being assaulted by a passenger who's joined the train and is known to the train manager as a risky customer.

I'm in Northern land this week and there is a far higher visible security presence than I have seen in the South West. And very interesting to watch a couple of challenges to passengers travelling without tickets or with tickets incorrect and lower valued than what they should have for the journey they are making.