Regular trains, yes. Regular buses, yet. Buses that replace trains - NO!

[whole diary]

[grahame]

My dog is allowed on the train.

My dog is allowed on regular service buses.

So why is my dog NOT allowed on a bus when it replaces a train??


Answer (from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) manager) to this public question at yesterday's TransWilts Stakeholder's meeting

"Because we source rail replacement buses from a number of third parties, a few of whom don't allow dogs on their vehicles, and it would be impractical to try and specify where dogs could and could not be carried".

Comments ...

1. The point was made that it's not really a replacement service if it doesn't offer a replacement for everyone who would use the train (but then would cycle arrangements on replacement buses be needed??)

2. How come the few operators of replacement vehicles who do not allow dogs are being allowed to dictate / limit services in this way.   Could not it be a condition of being awarded the contract that if someone's paid for their ticket and is travelling under national rail conditions of carriage with a dog that those conditions extend to the bus?

3. People travel more at weekends that during the week on leisure trips with dogs - so a disproportionate number of journeys are effected.

[ChrisB]

1. yes. you can bet cyclists would be demanding there bikes be carried. Fine on coaches as there is luggage storage underneath, not so easy on a service bus, especially in multiples.

Remember coaches, rather than buses, are often used. And it is very rare to be allowed to take your dog on coach services. Cleaning is the issue, as some people are allergic to dog hair & it is also quite difficult to remove dog hair in a general cleaning process. This is why you'll often be charged extra in hotel rooms (if they accept dogs at all)

2. It is the mix of buises and coaches that is the problem, not some buses and not others. Operators wouldn't bid for the woprk if forced to accept (more likely dogs than cycles admittedly) and thus cut down the number available,

3. not sure of the overall % of people affected - I see very few dogs on trains generally, even at weekends.

[Fourbee]

I have witnessed someone with a dog being ordered a taxi in these circumstances.

[Robin Summerhill]

I feel a bit of devil’s advocacy coming on…

Whilst I can understand where you are coming from, I think we need to start by looking at the wider picture to make sure that we don’t end up with a solution looking for a problem.

Rail replacement bus services, by their very nature, put passengers to inconvenience. Simply having to make an additional change or changes, and taking longer to get to one’s destination is an inconvenience in itself. This can be made worse if people are carrying luggage, and there are certainly some rail replacement buses that I’ve seen, for example Optare Solos being used on Melksham replacement services, where a family of four coming back from their jolly hols with a suitcase or two each, would cause a problem on that particular bus, especially if it happened to coincide with a wheelchair user needing to occupy the disabled space.

Whilst I am aware that there are people on this forum who travel with their dogs, my simple observation on trains suggests to me that the proportion of canines as opposed to people on the average train is infinitesimally small. Indeed, I would hazard a guess that there are more cycles on trains than there are dogs and, as already been pointed out, these aren’t allowed either.

Given the size of the problem, therefore, I wonder whether it is worth making a fuss about. Graham might be right in saying that there are more dogs on trains at weekends because there is more leisure travel, but leisure travel is not always date specific. By this I mean that, as a proportion of the total, not very much leisure travel has to be done on that particular day (eg attending a planned event); going to spend a day with Auntie Flo in Bognor, or going to Stratford on Avon just to have a look around, are things that can be done at weekends where the full train service is running.

Finally, I would expect that the bus drivers themselves would have ultimate responsibility to decide who or what they allow on their bus. For example, a driver may refuse to carry a drunk who has just got off the train. Similarly, as I see it at least, if you were to turn up with your dog (perhaps feigning ignorance of “the rules”), would the driver refuse to take you? I certainly can’t see a situation where he would be forced under the terms of his contract to refuse you, when if he was running a stage carriage service with the self-same bus he would have to take you.

Just some thoughts to throw into the mix   

[Robin Summerhill]

Cleaning is the issue, as some people are allergic to dog hair & it is also quite difficult to remove dog hair in a general cleaning process.

I agree with the rest of your post but I'm not sure that this bit stands up to scrutiny.

It would be a very "courageous" public transport operator indeed who refused to take guide dogs. And a dog is still a dog whether it is guiding someone with a white stick or a chihuahua sitting on some old biddy's lap being pampered.

[Fourbee]

I remember walking down the street and met a woman standing at a corner with a dog just sitting down. She was attempting to coax it into life, but it looked a bit grumpy.

Puzzled, I asked her what was going on. She said that he knows the station is down that road and hates going on the train. I might have to carry him!

Maybe the canines prefer the buses.

[CyclingSid]

On the subject of bicycles and rail replacement buses, the rules are basically the same as for peak hour restrictions on trains. Folding bikes, with a wheel size of less than 20 inches, can be carried. Similar situation on the Southampton -  Cowes West Jetfoil, where I have seen one of the full size bikes that folds in the middle refused, and me being told sharply to fold it.

[ChrisB]

Cleaning is the issue, as some people are allergic to dog hair & it is also quite difficult to remove dog hair in a general cleaning process.

I agree with the rest of your post but I'm not sure that this bit stands up to scrutiny.

It would be a very "courageous" public transport operator indeed who refused to take guide dogs. And a dog is still a dog whether it is guiding someone with a white stick or a chihuahua sitting on some old biddy's lap being pampered.

They are required to carry assistance dogs by law. So cleaning aftter carrying one is part of any contract bid.
Dog hair and carpet (in almost all coaches) is devilishly difficult to clean. Dog hair and lino (most buses) a lot easier. Maybe a standby minibus for dog-owners at either end?

[grahame]

I remember walking down the street and met a woman standing at a corner with a dog just sitting down. She was attempting to coax it into life, but it looked a bit grumpy.

Puzzled, I asked her what was going on. She said that he knows the station is down that road and hates going on the train. I might have to carry him!

Maybe the canines prefer the buses.

That doesn't sound like any dog I know.   Billy loves trains but is much less into buses as the darned things go round corners and throw him off balance.  Too excited to sit down!

[grahame]

On the subject of bicycles and rail replacement buses, the rules are basically the same as for peak hour restrictions on trains. ...

And [devil's advocate] I would be happy to see the same restrictions applied to dogs on rail replacement buses that are applied to dogs on peak hour trains[/devil's advocate]

Other posters - correct in suggestion this isn't a super-major campaign jobby (much more concerned to get the freedom pass extended to Wiltshire at the moment  ) but why the heck turn off some of your custom base.  Perhaps the reason that certain members don't often see dogs on trains is because of issues like "how do I get home if the train is cancelled and a rail replacement bus turns up?"