High Speed Leeds to Manchester. On again?

[whole diary]

[johnneyw]

Looks like the often talked about Leeds to Manchester High Speed line is back on the agenda according to reports on the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page). It seems Boris wants to get on with it now but there has been talk like this before. Here's a link to the story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49132477

[Robin Summerhill]

All I would say is be careful what you believe.

There is a blonde haired man running around at the moment telling everybody what he thinks they want to hear...

[johnneyw]

Well it's suceeded in getting a lot of attention from the Beeb. I would have been genuinely surprised if said blonde haired man had declared a South Western Powerhouse instead.

[eightonedee]

We'll know if Boris is serious if we find out he has contacted Grahame asking to borrow his mapbook and crayons.......

[martyjon]

We'll know if Boris is serious if we find out he has contacted Grahame asking to borrow his mapbook and crayons.......

Aff of its there already isn't it, it's called the Woodhead Tunnel, just head North-East out of the Eastern Portal rather than South-East as the previous line went.
 

[ellendune]

We'll know if Boris is serious if we find out he has contacted Grahame asking to borrow his mapbook and crayons.......

Aff of its there already isn't it, it's called the Woodhead Tunnel, just head North-East out of the Eastern Portal rather than South-East as the previous line went.
 

I am sure the people in the area won't mind the power cuts when they remove the national grid cables from it!

[martyjon]

We'll know if Boris is serious if we find out he has contacted Grahame asking to borrow his mapbook and crayons.......

Aff of its there already isn't it, it's called the Woodhead Tunnel, just head North-East out of the Eastern Portal rather than South-East as the previous line went.
 

I am sure the people in the area won't mind the power cuts when they remove the national grid cables from it!

Yea but I would expect national grid to be that prudent enough to provide an alternative before removing said cables.

[johnneyw]

With 3 tunnels is it at Woodhead, might the utilities currently using them be able to use the space more efficiently and free room up for it's original purpose? It's a lot cheaper than digging a new tunnel.

[Robin Summerhill]

We'll know if Boris is serious if we find out he has contacted Grahame asking to borrow his mapbook and crayons.......

Aff of its there already isn't it, it's called the Woodhead Tunnel, just head North-East out of the Eastern Portal rather than South-East as the previous line went.
 

I am sure the people in the area won't mind the power cuts when they remove the national grid cables from it!

I first thought of the Woodhead route too, and there are two sets of tunnels there (the original two single bores and the double bore dug for electrification), and I'm not sure that all four carry national grid cables.

However there are a number of other problems with using it, and the following have sprung to mind so far:

1. A new line would still be needed west of Woodhead, or at least certainly west of Hadfield because the existing line os full of local services. Even between Hadfield and Woodhead the line was not engineered for high speed running as it twists and turns to cope with the gradient.

2. Where it emerges at Dunford Bridge is not only still a long way from Leeds, it is a long way south of Leeds. This would make such a line look like an inverted "L" on the map. There would be much work to do to cut a high speed railway through the hills between Dunford Bridge (or Penistone) and Leeds.

3. The existing line between Hadfield and Pensitone, except currently the Woodhead tunnels, is a footpath/ cycle track/ nature trail and runs through a National Park. I can see the reinstating of the railway causing a stir in many quarters.

4. Taking all the above into account, if they gave me a blank sheet of paper and  said "plot out a route for a high speed line between Manchester and Leeds" I would start by looking at a route that runs parallel to the M62. This would have the advantage of being next to an existing transport corridor which was planned in the first place to minimise extensive disruption en route (it takes almost the least populated route across the Pennines that it is possible to find in the general area) so that might keep objections to a minimum.

It would also have the advantage of allowing road traffic using the M62 the opportunity to see trains running along the same route at almost double the speed that road traffic can get up to. There may be some psychology brought into play to make the motoring public at least think of using the train next time. This is not unlike the situation in Kent with HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and the M20.

[ellendune]

We'll know if Boris is serious if we find out he has contacted Grahame asking to borrow his mapbook and crayons.......

Aff of its there already isn't it, it's called the Woodhead Tunnel, just head North-East out of the Eastern Portal rather than South-East as the previous line went.
 

I am sure the people in the area won't mind the power cuts when they remove the national grid cables from it!

Yea but I would expect national grid to be that prudent enough to provide an alternative before removing said cables.

Yes but the railway would have to pay to move them!

With 3 tunnels is it at Woodhead, might the utilities currently using them be able to use the space more efficiently and free room up for it's original purpose? It's a lot cheaper than digging a new tunnel.

I first thought of the Woodhead route too, and there are two sets of tunnels there (the original two single bores and the double bore dug for electrification), and I'm not sure that all four carry national grid cables.

The old tunnels are now in too poor a condition to carry the cables so National Grid bought the new tunnel.  And no there would not be room for trains as well.  This is the national grid we are talking about.

If they did want to reuse Woodhead tunnel for HS3 then I suspect the cheapest option would be to refurbish one of the old ones for the cables.

However the railway might also consider using the spare bores in Standedge tunnel!

[martyjon]

Yes but the railway would have to pay to move them!

And where would the railway get the money to move them then, THE TAXPAYER of course. Isn't it called something like THE VICIOUS CIRCLE.

[ChrisB]

I think that was the point being made?! It's the way I read it

[Electric train]

Looks like the often talked about Leeds to Manchester High Speed line is back on the agenda according to reports on the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page). It seems Boris wants to get on with it now but there has been talk like this before. Here's a link to the story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49132477

This is called electioneering. 

It is, in my opinion, with very little doubt there will be a general election before Christmas; so I fear the new PM and his Cabinet are writing cheques for projects which post  election can then renege.  The current PM is well known for glamorous projects, London garden bridge over the Thames, the moving Heathrow into the Thames estuary, the bridge across the English Channel...…..

[martyjon]

Looks like the often talked about Leeds to Manchester High Speed line is back on the agenda according to reports on the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page). It seems Boris wants to get on with it now but there has been talk like this before. Here's a link to the story:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49132477

This is called electioneering. 

It is, in my opinion, with very little doubt there will be a general election before Christmas; so I fear the new PM and his Cabinet are writing cheques for projects which post  election can then renege.  The current PM is well known for glamorous projects, London garden bridge over the Thames, the moving Heathrow into the Thames estuary, the bridge across the English Channel...…..

A written cheque is STOPPED, not reneged.

I'm wearing my JRM hat now
 

[broadgage]

I can see the merit of a new route that largely follows a motorway as suggested a few posts back.

However as many others have said this sounds more like a pipedream or electioneering rather than a serious proposal. Several factors mitigate against this actually happening.
Firstly Boris has previous for grand schemes that never happen, see an earlier post for some of them.
Secondly network rail have previous for failing miserably to keep major projects to time or on budget. Crossrail, HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification.
And finally, if these issues can be overcome, consider the decades of studies, reviews, and consultations that will be needed, many of which will need doing again after each change of government. Meanwhile the newts and bats are no doubt breeding, but not of course breeding to the extent that they are no longer endangered.