Night Sleeper - next generation

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Yes, existing (or at present recent) passengers should be surveyed / listened to absolutely - but that's just one element.  Very important too - but difficult - to survey those who could have used the sleeper but have not done so.  What have they done instead?  What put them off?  Did they know what the sleeper offered?

There is also, perhaps, a lot to learn from the aircraft industry.  Where ... the "red-eye" in one direction is matched by a re-use of the same plane in the opposite direction for a daytime service.   And perhaps a lot to be learned from history and really long distance trains across continents that convert back and forth.

I ... amused myself .... 2 trains running ....
PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - PNZ 23:30 - 08:00
PNZ - ABN 10:30 - 18:30
ABN - PNZ 22:00 - 08:00
PNZ - PAD 10:00 - 17:00

and 2 trains running ....
PAD - PNZ 11:00 - 18:00
PNZ - ABN 21:00 - 07:00
ABN - PNZ 10:30 - 18:30
PNZ - PAD 21:00 - 06:00

Daytime trains being long distance, very comfortable, well catered (not sure if there would be Port and Stilton, mind)  and NOT taking intermediate traffic.

PAD also picking up / dropping off RDG^‡(resolve)
PNZ services for London not making any passenger stops between Reading and Newton Abbot
PNZ services for Aberdeen not making any passenger stops north of Bristol Parkway
Aberdeen services connections for Glasgow / Edinburgh at Stirling ... the stations to Aberdeen.

Very "Crayonista" ... looking at other London services all from the same base.  And, yes, I have used the sleeper and could give personal practical comment.

[smokey]

I think a Journey time of 8 hours from Penzance to Aberdeen would be Very interesting that leaves about 6 1/4 hours from Plymouth to Aberdeen. 

But GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should be able to make better use of the Sleeper Train locos

[grahame]

I think a Journey time of 8 hours from Penzance to Aberdeen would be Very interesting that leaves about 6 1/4 hours from Plymouth to Aberdeen. 

But GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should be able to make better use of the Sleeper Train locos

Like I say, very "crayonist" ... sharpening my crayons ... 5.5 hours (day) PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - PNZ; 11 hours (night) PNZ - ABN; 9.5 hours (day) ABN - PNZ; 8.0 hours (night) PNZ - PAD - total running time - 34 hours out of 48, allowing 3.5 hours for servicing between each run. Class 808 trains - 8 car bimode IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train), running electric London - Newbury and Bromsgrove - Falkirk via the West Coast. Extra overnight time allows for some engineering diversions, etc, and for mot dumping people off too early or having them wait to join too late.  The relatively quick London runs and the switching of trains between the two routes allow the long distance journey round trip to exceed the 24 hours, eating into what would be slack time for the daily London return trip.

[broadgage]

I think a Journey time of 8 hours from Penzance to Aberdeen would be Very interesting that leaves about 6 1/4 hours from Plymouth to Aberdeen. 

But GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should be able to make better use of the Sleeper Train locos

In order that they may fail and block the line during the day as well as at night ?
They struggle to make it between London and Cornwall despite very relaxed timings.

[Celestial]

I do wonder whether a West Country to Scotland sleeper would be better terminating at a central destination (such as Dunblane, with a call at Motherwell) that could provide relatively fast and direct onward connections to most destinations. That would avoid having to choose one region over another, and would reduce overall journey time for the stock.  There would be a guarantee of connections, particularly for evening departures from specific stations such as Inverness and Aberdeen.

(I've no idea whether Dunblane could be easily configured for such a service, but it's the concept rather than the specific station that is important).

[Bmblbzzz]

Google tells me Penzance to Aberdeen is 505 miles, so in 8 hours is an average 63.125 mph.

[Adelante_CCT]

Google tells me Penzance to Aberdeen is 505 miles

That's as the crow flies

Its 719 miles by the shortest rail route

[broadgage]

719 miles, suggests a 12 hour journey at an average of 60MPH, allowing for both slower bits and for a bit of slack.
If the customers wish to spend 8 or 9 hours sleeping, then that suggests the need for one or more decent bar/buffet/restaurant/lounge vehicles in which to spend the other 3 or 4 hours.

[TaplowGreen]

From where is the demand for a Penzance-Aberdeen sleeper service likely to come?

Are there that many Cornish oil rig workers?
 
At what market would it be aimed or is it just whimsy?

[grahame]

From where is the demand for a Penzance-Aberdeen sleeper service likely to come?

Are there that many Cornish oil rig workers?
 
At what market would it be aimed or is it just whimsy?

Passenger journeys from people joining the rail network at Penzance and leaving it at Aberdeen will be minimal. But then passenger journeys from joining the network at Cardiff Central and leaving it at Portsmouth Harbour are also minimal. 

Look to staycation and leisure traffic returning from Newquay and Falmouth, Torbay and Exmouth (and Butlins at Minehead by bus) and Weston-super-mare, Barry and Severn Beach returning home to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness ... Motherwell, Paisley, Livingston, East Kilbride, Perth, Dumbarton.  Look at the leisure and staycation traffic from Truro, Plymouth and Exeter, Bristol and Cheltenham Spa ... Bath, Cardiff, Newport, Gloucester and Worcester, headed for a week or weekend away Doon the Watter, in the Highlands, out to the West Coast at Oban, Mallaig or Kyle of Lochalsh, city centres Stirling, Glasgow, Edinburgh, golfing at Turnberry, St Andrews, Gleneagles, North Berwick, Barry Links or Carnoustie.  Coach tours with train transit for the long distance stuff.  Cruises in to Avonmouth or out from Rosyth.

Look to business traffic where cost, speed and convenience has drive people off trains onto flights from Exeter, Bristol and Cardiff airports to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, often followed by a night in a hotel prior to a meeting.  There is traffic to regained as we move to trains being more acceptable / greener, when pricing models get changed, and when space and facilities mean that travel time is spent not just getting a good nights sleep but a good working and relaxing connected setup too.

Remember we're looking at not one but two services a day - every 12 hours not every 24 - and much will be outbound overnight and back during the day, or vice versa.  We're looking at a marketed / promoted service, and not something that's accidentally almost there for historic reasons and arranged largely for the medium rather than long distance traffic.  We're looking at a root and branch service - a Christmas tree is not just about the fairy on the top, but also about the pretty lights and chocolates hanging from the branches, the baubles and trinkets, the tinsel and branches and the presents around its base.

Yes, whimsy - I have no figures for you.  But I suspect some of our other posters might tune a wild seed into a more cultivated product.  I'm already noting a potential change of destination of the main train ... looking at Stirling with numerous platforms where the service could usefully start / end, sitting so people can join / leave in really good time and with direct service onward / inward from so many of the key final destinations and starter points.

[broadgage]

I would expect considerable holiday traffic between Scotland and the Southwest. It is further than many people wish to drive, and is a very tedious journey by daytime train.
A growing minority are avoiding air travel for environmental reasons.

That suggests a demand for sleeper trains. 12 hours spent on a daytime train is regarded as 12 hours of ones holiday wasted. A 12 hour journey on a sleeper service compares well to a night in a hotel and a few hours flying.

[nickswift99]

In BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days there were lots of overnight trains from the NE/Scotland to the SW for summer holiday traffic. Even though they were seated trains, my memory of them was that they were quite popular, especially the direct Newquay services.

I spent many a Friday night enjoying a few beers before boarding a train at Derby and heading to a cornish seaside town for the day.

[GBM]

Going back many years, I paid off ship in Newcastle and caught the overnight train to Penzance

[Sixty3Closure]

Yes, whimsy - I have no figures for you.  But I suspect some of our other posters might tune a wild seed into a more cultivated product.  I'm already noting a potential change of destination of the main train ... looking at Stirling with numerous platforms where the service could usefully start / end, sitting so people can join / leave in really good time and with direct service onward / inward from so many of the key final destinations and starter points.

I have a vague recollection from my youth that use to happen at Stirling. I know there was the Motorail service for a few years and my father use to get the sleeper to London a lot although he may have changed at Edinburgh. It does seem a good spot though with other rail links, M80 and the bus station just down the road.

Edit to clarify quoting

[old original]

As an example to how many overnighters there used to be during the peak season, here's Summer 1982
Friday night - Southbound
1931 York - Penzance arr 0543
2131 Nottingham - Newquay arr 0658
2137 Man Picc - Newquay arr 0635
2239 Man Picc - Penzance arr 0826
2306 Sheffield - Paignton arr 0556
2042 Newcastle - Newquay arr 0849
2355 Liverpool - Penzance arr 0925
2110 Glasgow - Paignton arr 0716
2212 Newcastle - Paignton arr 0735
2320 Bradford - Paignton arr 0750

Plus
2357 Paddington - Penzance arr 0807 (seats only)
2359 Paddington - Penzance arr 0748 (sleeper)

I do remember in some years the seated overnighter from London went to Newquay rather than Penzance.