Padding overkill

[whole diary]

[Lee]

I've said it before, so I'll say it again, no-one wants shuttles. They may appear reliable, but often aren't, especially over longer distances, and people do not like changing trains. A crude comparison of passenger numbers in pre-Turbo days up to 1992, with those since, with almost all trains through to/from London, is all you need to demonstrate this.

Is there any chance that you could post some of the passenger numbers in pre-Turbo days up to 1992 on the forum, willc? I would be interested in having a look at them.

[willc]

Lee,

For detailed numbers, you would probably be best trying the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about), who I think have stats going back for most of the 30 years they have been around. I have put some numbers I can find without too much detective work below, and also something on the instant effect of the full Turbo timetable in 1993. You were often spoiled for choice of seats when using a two-car Sprinter off peak before then.

During a House of Commons transport debate in April 1994, Peter Luff, then the Tory MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) for Worcester (he now represents a rural chunk of the county, including the Vale of Evesham) said: "Investment in rail is also proceeding. The Cotswold Line Promotion Group, in its winter 1993^94 newsletter, described the effect of ^3 million of investment in new rolling stock: The new service of modern Class 165 and 166 Turbo trains through to and from Paddington is now beginning to pay handsome dividends. Mike Haigh, District Manager for Regional Railways (Central) has recently told the Group that passenger numbers, since the introduction of the trains in May 1993, are 25 per cent up and revenue is 32 per cent up on the same period last year".

The winter issue of Cotswold and Malvern Line News usually appears in late November, or early December each year, so the figures he quotes are probably for the first five or six months of Turbos - that is how dramatic the hike in passenger numbers was. Regional Railways are mentioned because under BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) they managed the route, even though the Turbos were Network SouthEast's

Not directly related to that period I'm afraid, but these are annual passenger figures for the principal staffed intermediate stations on the route.

In order 1977, 1979, 2003, 2005, 2006
Charlbury: 65,494; 81,152; 229,000; 236,749; 232,040
Kingham: 31,258; 36,615; 121,318; 124,462; 126,995
Moreton-in-M: 56,370; 68,193; 176,893; 180,458; 178,004
Evesham: 114,645; 130,198; 240,174; 269,474; 239,257

2005-6 was when the reliability problems began to take a toll on passenger numbers, though oddly that year Combe, Finstock and Ascott-under-Wychwood numbers were all up. I've yet to see the 2007 numbers.

[Btline]

I bet those values will boom once a reliable hourly HST^▸ (High Speed Train) service starts (with Firstminutefares)!!

[Lee]

Not directly related to that period I'm afraid, but these are annual passenger figures for the principal staffed intermediate stations on the route.

In order 1977, 1979, 2003, 2005, 2006
Charlbury: 65,494; 81,152; 229,000; 236,749; 232,040
Kingham: 31,258; 36,615; 121,318; 124,462; 126,995
Moreton-in-M: 56,370; 68,193; 176,893; 180,458; 178,004
Evesham: 114,645; 130,198; 240,174; 269,474; 239,257

2005-6 was when the reliability problems began to take a toll on passenger numbers, though oddly that year Combe, Finstock and Ascott-under-Wychwood numbers were all up. I've yet to see the 2007 numbers.

Many thanks for that, willc.

Do you think that the rise in Combe, Finstock and Ascott-under-Wychwood numbers could be linked to the quote below? :

Between 2002-4, a two-car Turbo left London at about 17.15, then Oxford at 18.23 as the halts train (17 minutes behind the first Hereford service) under a special exemption from the franchise requirement of a departure from Oxford at about 5.30pm. The exemption was scrapped by the SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) the December after FGW^▸ (First Great Western) took over. One thing this  period proved was there is no demand for a halts train at this time of day. The number of people getting off at the halts dwindled - I was never entirely sure how some of those I saw using the morning train into Oxford got back to Combe, Finstock and Ascott. They reappeared once the departure went back to 17.25.

[willc]

I don't think there was a connection with the timing of the halts train, as Shipton's numbers went down 2005-6 and Finstock was still well below 2003, despite rising.

I'd say it's more to do with people's travelling habits, as the counts at the halts are pretty low to start with (low to mid four figures). Just one or two opting to commute by train or dropping out could shift the number up or down quite a lot.

[IanL]

Another example of padding overkill, the 1231 Charlbury to Paddington, departed Charlbury 6minutes late, waited outside Oxford for 5minutes until allowed to enter station because we were too early to get access to the station.

Scheduled at 27minutes, 11 minutes of which was late/waiting for platform to clear and still managed to leave Oxford on time.

[Btline]

This padding lark is getting ridiculus.

People who do not realise about the padding, will assume the train is being delayed, and tell thier friends that the line is unreliable!

Oh.....but............

No seriously, when will they realise that padding does not help?

[devon_metro]

As much slack as there is, without it any cock ups further along the line cause more substantial problems. I'd blame the single line.

[Btline]

As much slack as there is, without it any cock ups further along the line cause more substantial problems. I'd blame the single line.

The more slack there is, the more slack the service is operated - the staff don't bother getting the doors locked in plenty of time because they assume they will make up time - when in reality, they could delay another train, or become more delayed themselves!

This happened at Great Malvern about a week back - train rolled in (1551 to Padd) 5 mins early, and departed slightly late because the guard disappeared somewhere (I think the cafe). As it happens, it did not matter, as we rolled into Malvern Link way before 1555 (being a 180 helped). But I have seen this at Worcester, where delays cause congestion and delays.

of course, the sooner they redouble, cut the tokens, and increase speeds the better (anyone for continuous 90 mph from Worcester to Evesham?).

[Btline]

Think the CL slack is too much?

How about 1/2 hour slack (in the Wrexham and Shropshire timetable between Wellington and London)?

I suppose we are lucky!

[willc]

Try the 13.20 from Hereford to London. Sits for 14 minutes at Evesham and 13 at Moreton...

[Btline]

Try the 13.20 from Hereford to London. Sits for 14 minutes at Evesham and 13 at Moreton...

[eightf48544]

Think the CL slack is too much?

How about 1/2 hour slack (in the Wrexham and Shropshire timetable between Wellington and London)?

I suppose we are lucky!

See posts under Wrexham and Shropshire. Given they've got to get across Birmingham on heavily congested lines it's probably not unreasonable although regretable that we can't run our railways more to time and avoid such padding.

However:

Try the 13.20 from Hereford to London. Sits for 14 minutes at Evesham and 13 at Moreton...

That's totally stupid and as BTlines says:

"The more slack there is, the more slack the service is operated - the staff don't bother getting the doors locked in plenty of time because they assume they will make up time - when in reality, they could delay another train, or become more delayed themselves!"

Exactly there is fantastic quote in Gerry Fiennes I'd Tried to Run a Railway (voted joint second best railwayman (ever) in Alan Williams poll in Modern Railways) about the electric service out of Liverpool Street to Shenfield  in the late 50s early 60s. It's something like. "The trains rolls in the doors open passengers alight and 800 people get on the driver and guard change ends and 4 minutes later the train rolls out."

[Btline]

Stuff like that never happens today!

At Worcester Foregate Street, it can take 10 mins for a local DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) to be turned around (even if it is late, there is no evidence to rushing/urgency).

Saw an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) terminating at Foregate to go back to London. Arrived 4 mins before dep time, and the train left about 4 late.

Yes- HSTs are long + the platform is curved the wrong way.

But I saw a lot of strolling around, and times where all doors were shut, but not being locked. The doors also seemed to be unlocked/locked several times! The platform staff did not seem to help the guards (there were 2 (!) of them - unless the buffet man was assisting in despatch).

Took too long, and probably delayed a service later on.

[Jim]

Problem with HST^▸ (High Speed Train) turnrounds is you need to do a full brake test first....