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Author Topic: "Climate campaigners should block road-building not HS2"  (Read 23782 times)
4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2021, 21:37:49 »


The combustion of fossil fuels adds to atmospheric carbon dioxide levels which are generally accepted to be the a cause of climate change.

A minor correction...

Not all causes of the changes in climate are man made, there are also many possible naturally occurring mechanisms for climate change which have been discussed, analysed and debated in many places. For example other influences are the Earth's elliptical motion around the Sun not being regular resulting in small long term changes in the incoming radiation levels (Milankovitch cycles) and the last ice age only ended some 10,000 years ago and we are now in an interglacial period. Scientific evidence shows that the Earth's surface temperature has varied dramatically over the last several million years without any human input from the burning of fossil fuels.

None of this should be taken as meaning that I think that man-made climate change is all malarkey - Alexander von Humboldt suggested that burning stuff would create a greenhouse effect in the early 19th century and history has proven him correct. What I do find annoying are the suggestions that it is only man-made and therefore it is our fault - for me the holy Greta comes across as a medieval prophetess - and that wearing a hair shirt will somehow make it better.

Of course we should be emitting lower levels of carbon dioxide - but one should be clear that even if the quantity could be reduced to zero and the CO2 levels in the atmosphere reduced to pre-Industrial Revolution levels it is still entirely likely that the Earth would continue to warm up. And then cool again. It always has done so in the past.

You are of course right that man-made emissions is not the only cause.  Its just that it seems to be the largest single factor by a long way.  So your contention that we do not need to "wear a hair shirt" as you put it is flawed. 

The cost to our economy of climate change is already immense and we have no choice but to pay that, but we have to chose to pay the money to reduce carbon which will save us (and more particularly our descendants) far more in the future. 

I really am not trying to get into a slanging match but what I said was that simply wearing a hair shirt will not make the situation better. The reference meant that one should not do things which are essentially ‘virtue signalling’ without them having any significant effect whatsoever on the outcome.

Whatever measures are taken to reduce the level of emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases will have to be acceptable to the man in the street — since we live in a democracy. Any steps taken will have to be clear, fair and understandable and have a global effect - simply exporting the emissions will help nobody.

What will not work, for example, is making holidays in the Canary Islands more expensive by taxing air transport heavily or banning certain types of flights — if no compensating mechanism is put into place. Flying is convenient for the customer because less of his or her annual holiday allowance is taken up with the journey. If the alternative offered is high speed rail to Cadiz or Casablanca followed by a sea crossing then annual holiday allowances will have to be increased or there will be social unrest in the Canaries as a large part of the inhabitants' livelihoods will be taken away.

Simply cutting travel will have unintended consequences. Equally offering Paignton or Blackpool as alternatives is not acceptable — unless a lot of outdoor heating is installed and the promenades roofed over!

But the emissions caused by air travel are some way down the list of carbon dioxide sources, domestic energy demands, for example, far outweigh these. Making new buildings energy efficient is easy and over the last few decades changes in building regulations have ensured that this is the case. Treating the older housing stock is a completely different kettle of fish - with the best will in the world it will not be possible to bring them all up to modern standards - there are questions of design, materials, construction standards, sizes of rooms, heritage aspects and the ability of the owners to pay for the changes. Just look at the amounts of money that the owners of flats in tower blocks are being asked to pay where the cladding has to be changed after the Grenfell fire. Sums in the orders of tens of thousands of pounds for external work are being asked of people who are innocent of any wrongdoing. Simply demanding that house owners insulate their buildings for the sake of future generations or the wholesale replacement of the existing housing stock with new energy efficient housing will not work either.

Even if new forms of domestic heating, such as communal geo-thermal energy, are introduced there would still be a, possibly slowly decreasing, residual level of greenhouse gas emissions. Maybe we will have to live with it.

The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy publishes annual statistics on the country’s aggregate energy balance where all the different energy sources and consumers are standardised to thousands of tonnes of oil equivalent. The series is called DUKES, standing for Digest of UK (United Kingdom) Energy Statistics. One of the calls made both in this forum and in other places is that to meet decarbonisation and emission targets the railways should be electrified. From the current statistics it would seem that this would not be the most cost-effective method of achieving this goal: in 2019 the country’s total supply of primary energy (oil, coal, gas, electricity) amounted to 197 million tonnes of oil equivalent of which rail transport consumed just over 1 million tonnes. That is rail consumes 0.58% of the country’s total energy consumption. In comparison domestic and road transport consumption are both around 40 million tonnes per annum.

Other Government statistics show that rail contributes just over 1% of the country’s emissions. If more of the network were to be electrified then it might be assumed that the emissions might fall to just under 1% of the total, but at a multi-billion pound price tag. If you were a Treasury official trying to decide the most effective way of spending several billion to reduce emissions I suggest that electrifying more railway would be way down the list.

There are good and valid reasons for electrifying railways - lighter, faster accelerating trains requiring less maintenance than their diesel powered cousins mean a more attractive and cost effective service could be offered. But this argument has to be made on its own merits - reduction of emissions isn’t a factor because in the great scheme of things they are very low anyway.

The American journalist H L Mencken (1880 - 1956) once wrote “For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” The problem of increasing CO2 levels in the atmosphere has been around since the first cooks and metalworkers although the increases have only become significant for the last 150 or 200 years and atmospheric CO2 been reliably continuously measured for the last 80 or so years. Reducing emissions on a global scale is an enterprise which will take decades - there is no simple, neat answer.



(H L Mencken was also a prophet! He wrote in The Baltimore Sun in 1920 “On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” Boy, was he right!)
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broadgage
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« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2021, 03:12:26 »

I see no need for holidays in the Canary islands, or similarly distant places, and do not expect civil unrest if such holidays became more expensive as a result of taxing air travel.

Those who consider the UK (United Kingdom) climate unsuited for holidays can always visit the hotter parts of Europe by train. Preferably by fast through train.

If we are serious about the climate emergency, we need to fly and drive a lot less, and that might mean more holidays in the UK. Time spent on holiday travel is a bit of a red herring since most people now get about twice as much paid holiday as was the case in the 1960s. 4 weeks is now the norm rather than two weeks.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2021, 15:02:09 »

I see no need for holidays in the Canary islands, or similarly distant places, and do not expect civil unrest if such holidays became more expensive as a result of taxing air travel.

Those who consider the UK (United Kingdom) climate unsuited for holidays can always visit the hotter parts of Europe by train. Preferably by fast through train.

If we are serious about the climate emergency, we need to fly and drive a lot less, and that might mean more holidays in the UK. Time spent on holiday travel is a bit of a red herring since most people now get about twice as much paid holiday as was the case in the 1960s. 4 weeks is now the norm rather than two weeks.
No, that doesn't make it a red herring. It means that people are used to twice as much holiday now as other people were in the 1960s. There's little point expecting people to become accustomed to something on a the grounds that it was the norm before they were born (median age of UK population is 41). You might be able to persuade people to go back to the 1960s if you were able to present it as better than the present day, but otherwise those comparisons only have meaning within people's experience. How much holiday did people have 20 years ago?
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TonyK
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« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2021, 15:43:32 »

I see no need for holidays in the Canary islands, or similarly distant places,

I do. It's nice there in January and February. It isn't nice here.
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2021, 17:05:44 »

I see no need for holidays in the Canary islands, or similarly distant places, and do not expect civil unrest if such holidays became more expensive as a result of taxing air travel.

Those who consider the UK (United Kingdom) climate unsuited for holidays can always visit the hotter parts of Europe by train. Preferably by fast through train.

If we are serious about the climate emergency, we need to fly and drive a lot less, and that might mean more holidays in the UK. Time spent on holiday travel is a bit of a red herring since most people now get about twice as much paid holiday as was the case in the 1960s. 4 weeks is now the norm rather than two weeks.

You completely missed the point about social unrest. What I wrote was
QUOTE
or there will be social unrest in the Canaries as a large part of the inhabitants' livelihoods will be taken away.
END QUOTE

Not in the UK — in the Canary Islands.

The point being that if getting to the Canary Islands become so expensive in money and time the result will be that the number of tourists drops dramatically.

Your desire to the 'save the planet' — laudable though it certainly is — has now plunged a whole population into poverty.

What do you suggest is now done to ensure that the local inhabitants still have work?
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Lee
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« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2021, 19:23:02 »

Interestingly, all but one of the route sections required to travel from London to the Canary Islands either already exist, or have some sort of plan in place to be constructed. Assuming a post-Covid world:

London-Paris - Eurostar

Paris-Barcelona - TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse)

Barcelona-Madrid - AVE

Madrid-San Roque La Linea (for Gibraltar) - Intercity

Gibraltar-Tanger - Train Tunnel UK (United Kingdom)-Morocco talks planned

Tanger-Marrakech - Overnight Train

Marrakech-Agadir then Agadir-Laayoune - New high speed train and classic lines planned

That just leaves the last bit. You would need a 93 mile "Boris Bridge" from Laayoune-Morro Jable on Fuerteventura. This would be theoretically (and I use the word in its very loosest sense) possible because the longest rail bridge in the world is the Danyang–Kunshan Grand Bridge in China, part of the Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway, which is 102 miles long.

So there you have it - broadgage's dream brought to life, and doubtless dover sole and excellent port all round.
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broadgage
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« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2021, 19:33:09 »

A train service to the canary islands is undoubtedly  a long term possibility.
In the nearer term I consider fast, through trains to Europe to be a higher priority.
It is possible, right now, to travel by train from say Glasgow to southern Europe, however the cost, complexity, and time taken are unreasonable.
A THROUGH train, even just once a week, could be most attractive for holidays in the warmer parts of Europe.
A night in reasonable comfort on a sleeper train could compare well to air transport.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2021, 19:48:04 »

Climate change will plunge the population of the Canary Islands into poverty in time.
It is not the responsibility of the U.K. to keep the economy of the Canary Islands afloat    with something that is largely a luxury to most of the worlds population. Tackling global warming is also in the best interests of the Canary Islands. If we can’t make some changes to the way we live, future generations will suffer. Climate change is a simple as that.

Now, I like many things which are bad for the environment, steam and diesel locomotives, 70’s Fords, large construction projects etc. but I understand that time has to move on, things change, and that for the sake of future generations, things have to change pretty drastically now. Carbon emissions are caught up in practically everything we do in the western world. It’s not the fault of individuals, it’s the world of consumerism we’ve become accustomed to or been born into, but it is up to individuals to recognize there is a climate emergency. We can’t change that easily as individuals, this is where Extinction Rebellion come in. They recognize that it’s governments that need to reduce carbon emissions with policy, not leave it to us by hoping we all find the money to buy electric cars, if we even have the space to charge them in. I for one would like life to continue as it was but I realize now that some things are not going to be the same in the future, and I’m willing to forego certain things for the benefit of that and those younger than me.

My personal problem with high speed 2 is that I believe local transport is where the money and efforts should be focused, how we get around the areas where we live, not interurban travel. This will have a far greater effect of taking cars off the road and impact more people’s lives for the money. I understand the capacity argument but if thats really the problem, why build such a high spec railway which involves such destruction of natural habitats at a time when we should be planting more? If capacity is the argument, then reinstating the Great Central would be as effective, I doubt Extinction Rebellion would have any problem with that as they also understand that we do need transport improvements in a future emitting no carbon.

Climate change is a tough truth to face, and one we’ve been contributing to for some time with our heads in the sand, but it’s a truth that all of us on here will probably not see the worst of, that will be the generations below us. They will have to attempt to cope with the problems created by something we exasperated with our desires and needs.
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« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2021, 19:54:25 »

Lisa and I did Barcelona to Melksham ... late afternoon / early evening from Barcelona, 24 hours later arrival in Melksham.   Sure, working it out took a bit of doing and I don't really it being either cheap or expensive.   But then it was just one leg of a longer journey.  

The frustration is that so much of what is needed is there already ... just gummed up in red tape and no-one responsible or willing / able to take the risk of sorting it out.  How many years has it taken to get an independent extra operation from Bishop's Lydeard to Banbury - just imagine how much longer it would take for Cardiff to Barcelona (2nd Cardiff to London operator's just been refused!)
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2021, 22:26:13 »

Your desire to the 'save the planet' — laudable though it certainly is — has now plunged a whole population into poverty.

The choice, it seems, is: Do we risk plunging the population into poverty, or just give up and have no population at all? We've got just under 9 years to decide.
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« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2021, 23:00:48 »

Well, if you believe some of the 'information' out there, the population of the world will plumet, due to no more births, after everyone gets the so called vaccine!
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ellendune
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« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2021, 07:56:48 »

Your desire to the 'save the planet' — laudable though it certainly is — has now plunged a whole population into poverty.

The choice, it seems, is: Do we risk plunging the population into poverty, or just give up and have no population at all? We've got just under 9 years to decide.

It is clear we must take a different course to avoid a making what will already be a very big impact of climate change even worse.  Yet I would contest that doing something different must have the effect you say.  Some places as you suggest will need to find a different form of economy.  However, as an archipelago in the tropics, the Canaries is likely disproportionately hit by climate change (changes in weather patterns - sea level rise) if nothing is done. 
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TonyK
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« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2021, 08:48:04 »


Huge waste of fuel in the retail and leisure sectors. Thinking in particular of permanently open shop doorways and the popularity of outdoor heating.


This one's easy. Buy electric outdoor heaters, and switch to a green tariff. You get a picture of a wind turbine on the bill, and the knowledge that the more you use, the better the world is.

I'd tend to agree. I'm putting in Solar panels and the grants and feed in tariffs are much lower than they use to be to the point of not being much of an incentive.

The admin around these schemes is also off putting although I can never decide if that's deliberate.

Raising the building quality of new homes would be a simple way to help go green but its continually put off.

This one is not so easy, and depends whether the primary objective is to produce electricity, or generate subsidy. I have a small solar array on the roof, installed at the time the house was built and invisible from the ground. To the builder, and this touches on the quality aspect, it was the cheapest and easiest way of putting the cherry on the icing on the bun of energy efficiency. Building regs set a fairly high bar on new housing, soon to be raised again. My house is easy to heat (big gas boiler in the garage feeding underfloor piping) and takes advantage of natural sunlight.

The solar thing works reasonably well. I get  to use the electricity it produces, and the smart meter shows me that the amount generated is enough to run the dishwasher, but not the kettle. Fridge-freezer, computer, TV set - all can be running without showing any consumption. The feed-in tariff (FIT) pays me for the electricity I have generated, whether it goes into the grid or not. The amount generated is measured, but the amount exported is not, because it isn't cost-effective for small systems. The initial bureaucracy was a little tedious, but only because the builder hadn't left the necessary certification, and the installer had made a minor error with the address when registering it. Once that was done, it becomes a simple matter of emailing meter readings a couple of times annually. The most time consuming part is banking the cheque (yes, they send cheques!), easier now I can do it with my mobile phone. It provides about £100 per annum in cash, plus a greater amount in free electricity. FITs have been cut, because the money allocated was spent, and as we are told, it is cheaper these days to buy the kit. As with all these things, some sharp practices arose, with people signing away the rights to their rooftops for 25 years in exchange for free panels, but not the FIT.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 09:22:53 by TonyK » Logged

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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2021, 08:50:09 »


Huge waste of fuel in the retail and leisure sectors. Thinking in particular of permanently open shop doorways and the popularity of outdoor heating.


This one's easy. Buy electric outdoor heaters, and switch to a green tariff. You get a picture of a wind turbine on the bill, and the knowledge that the more you use, the better the world is.

Or alternatively, wear a vest.
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TonyK
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« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2021, 09:24:15 »


Huge waste of fuel in the retail and leisure sectors. Thinking in particular of permanently open shop doorways and the popularity of outdoor heating.


This one's easy. Buy electric outdoor heaters, and switch to a green tariff. You get a picture of a wind turbine on the bill, and the knowledge that the more you use, the better the world is.

Or alternatively, wear a vest.

What - with a backless, strapless cocktail dress?  Grin

Edit: Fixed quotes - RS
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 10:52:27 by Red Squirrel » Logged

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