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Author Topic: Vivarail chosen for fast charging trial on the Greenford branch  (Read 14435 times)
TonyK
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« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2022, 11:36:02 »

I agree, broadgage, although NIMBYs aside, I doubt that a large lithium battery in a built up area would get the nod from the planning people on safety grounds.

Thank you, Paul, for checking my homework.
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« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2022, 11:47:24 »

For all those desperate for another fix of facts and numbers, there's some in a long railengineer article dated October 2020 and a US presentation from April 2019. So these data can be added to the knowns list:

The DC (Direct Current) bus voltage is 750 V, as it was before conversion. It's a very hard thing to alter, even if they have changed pretty much everything that connects to it, and of course it's essential to allow the option of third rail power.

The one thing I can't source explicitly is whether the new batteries are around 100 kWh capacity, like the initial ones. I think they are; I just can't work out where I saw that. But that's not all used; they are operated between 20% and 80% charge by agreement with Hoppecke. The bottom 20% is "get you home" reserve, but how can the top 20% be used as a reserve? My guess is that as they get older the upper limit of charge is allowed to go up to keep the same working range of 60 kWh.

The planned and/or guaranteed life of the batteries in service is seven years, after which they are either recycled by the makers at once, or used in a trackside buffer store for ten years first.

The fast charging is done per vehicle, and for this train that's two batteries each end. It has room for three, and for COP26 the third one was said to be "for resilience". Given the nature of that one-off deployment away from its home depot, this makes most sense if it was a spare that could be swapped in in any siding by moving a few cables or borrowing a forklift. 

Exactly how many batteries are attached could have been altered, and indeed it could still change. There is room for three under each motor vehicle, and five under the central trailer. It may well be that the arrangements for using all of those, and for fast charging them, don't exist yet.

These new batteries need built-in cooling to cope with the "in excess of 1000 A" charging current per battery. So each fast charger needs to supply nearly 2 MW. I think that's within the range of what third rails and shoes can manage, though they do say they are using ceramic carbon shoes. Being static on the rail for several minutes may make the heat build-up worse, perhaps.

The objective to "fully replenish" a battery in 10 minutes, taken literally, but for 120 kW working capacity, requires 720 kW (a little under 1000 A). That has to be doubled for the vehicle. Balancing does waste charging current, and liberate heat, but it would be surprising if it added 10% to the charge current. But the numbers do match, more or less. Note that charging a battery needs a higher voltage, but the extra power isn't recoverable, so without extra information the numbers may not mean exactly what you think.

The US presentation includes a figure of 2 kWh per vehicle mile, which is a lot less than 9 kWh per km for three vehicles (nearly 5 kWh per vehicle mile). I wonder which is right? Either way, an 8 km round trip to Greenford would not take 10 minutes to replace. That's just as well, since keeping the current 2 tph with one train (as suggested by GWR (Great Western Railway)) only allow 6 minutes total for both ends.

If the highest figures apply, and it used 80 kWh per round trip, it needs to put back 20 kWh per battery. In two minutes that needs 600 kW - which can be done, according to the data above.
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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2022, 13:27:22 »



Charging at 300kW should not be an issue, if the previously stated 60 miles on a single charge is correct the unit will only need charging once it arrives at West Ealing from Reading TCD and then before it returns back to Reading TCD at the end of the day.

How does that work? If it's a half hourly service on a 5 mile return trip then it would need recharging at least every 6 hours. And surely better to get used to topping up every time so that there are as many opportunities as possible to ensure that the process is robust and works every time, even if time constrained.

In reality a traction unit dose not draw full power 100% of its journey, it will coast or "throttle" back for a large portion of its journey.   It will sit on its charging point and the unit software will decide what charge rate to adopt.


400 kw is in theory just about doable at UK (United Kingdom) standard supply of 415/433 volt three phase. It would however be a very "disturbing" load to add to the ordinary LV distribution system.

A dedicated substation supplied at 11 kv would probably be required. In a built up area, providing an extra substation is routine and probably cheaper than a local battery. The substation transformer and other equipment should last at least 50 years.
Any local battery would almost certainly need replacing many times in 50 years.

Another advantage of a dedicated substation is that the transformer may be of a suitable voltage for the fast charger, rather than incurring the capital cost and the losses in transforming 415/433 volts up the charging voltage.

Ideally fast charging should be available at BOTH ends of the line, but the on board battery capacity should enable a normal service to be operated with charging only available at one end. In case of transformer failure or local power cut.



There is also the NIMBY factor, I and many other people would oppose a large lithium battery near my home in case of accident. A local substation would no problem.

The project team will almost certainly have talked to the local DNO (Distribution Network Operator) for a supply.

Another method to derive the power would be a 25kV transformer in theory 6 MW is posible in reality an aux supply transformer of 1 or 2MW have been used on the National system the output voltage what every you chose, it could feed a SFC to produce 3 phase from the single phase input
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« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2022, 18:29:36 »

Quote
The one thing I can't source explicitly is whether the new batteries are around 100 kWh capacity, like the initial ones. I think they are; I just can't work out where I saw that. But that's not all used; they are operated between 20% and 80% charge by agreement with Hoppecke. The bottom 20% is "get you home" reserve, but how can the top 20% be used as a reserve? My guess is that as they get older the upper limit of charge is allowed to go up to keep the same working range of 60 kWh.

I imagine the 80% is too allow for regenerative braking, if for example the unit has been charged at the top of a hill.
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« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2022, 19:07:05 »

Quote
The one thing I can't source explicitly is whether the new batteries are around 100 kWh capacity, like the initial ones. I think they are; I just can't work out where I saw that. But that's not all used; they are operated between 20% and 80% charge by agreement with Hoppecke. The bottom 20% is "get you home" reserve, but how can the top 20% be used as a reserve? My guess is that as they get older the upper limit of charge is allowed to go up to keep the same working range of 60 kWh.

I imagine the 80% is too allow for regenerative braking, if for example the unit has been charged at the top of a hill.

I think a diesel hybrid might need to do that, but it seems a bit too much to allow for a pure electric train.

Going back to those numbers, 80 kWh 33 times per 24 hours averages out at 110 kW. That (plus a bit for losses - say 120-150 kW) is quite a chunky "trickle". It could be supplied at 400 V three phase from a large enough commercial installation. Whether a small station like West Ealing would have anything like that available is another matter. NR» (Network Rail - home page) may be able to do things differently, especially at the carriage sidings. If the power used is the lower of those two figures, say 70 kW, it's obviously easier to source.

That does not make use of the full battery range, of course. If it can do five trips (or ten if that's right) without replacing that charge from the buffer store, that  much might instead be done overnight and from another supply.

Vivvarail's marketing emphasises not needing a lot of heavy infrastructure, and even the "pop-up" electric train service needing a big box of batteries dumped in each station car park and little else.
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« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2022, 20:39:19 »


In reality a traction unit dose not draw full power 100% of its journey, it will coast or "throttle" back for a large portion of its journey.   It will sit on its charging point and the unit software will decide what charge rate to adopt.

I would assume that is taken into account in coming up with the 62 mile range quoted, based on an assumed typical cycle of acceleration, braking and coasting.
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« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2022, 10:11:10 »

I see that the distance from West Ealing to Reading depot is approx 29 miles as the crow flies. If the train will be stored at Reading overnight, presumably it will need a top up before it departs for West Ealing in the morning otherwise it will be close to or over it's 62 mile range.
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« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2022, 10:18:56 »

I see that the distance from West Ealing to Reading depot is approx 29 miles as the crow flies. If the train will be stored at Reading overnight, presumably it will need a top up before it departs for West Ealing in the morning otherwise it will be close to or over it's 62 mile range.

Does the first run of the day still start from Paddington and the final run end there?
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« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2022, 10:27:36 »

I believe the unit is to be stabled and serviced in West Ealing sidings with light maintenance being carried out in the Plasser works next door, so no lengthy runs required.  Probably one of the reasons why the Greenford route was chosen for the trial.
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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2022, 18:53:35 »

Update from a meeting with GWR (Great Western Railway) this afternoon.

The unit will charge to full in just three minutes at West Ealing on each return there.
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2022, 19:02:02 »

Update from a meeting with GWR (Great Western Railway) this afternoon.

The unit will charge to full in just three minutes at West Ealing on each return there.

That's a lot of Joules (one kilowatt-hour is equivalent to 3.6 megajoule)
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2022, 19:09:32 »

That's what I thought & asked for confirmation that I'd heard correctly.
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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2022, 19:19:46 »

Update from a meeting with GWR (Great Western Railway) this afternoon.

The unit will charge to full in just three minutes at West Ealing on each return there.

Did they how empty that was from? My guesstimate upthread was that it would have used a sixth of a batteryfull, and replacing that would take a couple of minutes.
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« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2022, 19:22:35 »

no, that wasn't mentioned/asked
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broadgage
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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2022, 05:57:25 »

I doubt that charging from empty in three minutes would be possible.
I presume that they mean replacing the amount of charge used in the previous journey, which is still impressive.
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It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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