Bus fare evasion arrest, Croydon

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

(I'm not sure if this is better here, in Fare's Fair, or elsewhere – so mods please move if appropriate)

I'd just like to understand what happened in this case. A woman was arrested on a TfL^» (Transport for London - about) bus for alleged fare evasion (which turned out to be an incorrect allegation). What I don't understand is how this would be checked, seeing as those buses do not issue tickets, you just tap to pay (and unlike other places, don't even tap out).

The Met said she was later released when it was confirmed she had paid for her ticket.

I presume "ticket" is just journalese rather than referring to an actual piece of paper or electronic token.

The Met said the woman left the bus after not complying with a revenue inspector's request to check that she had paid her fare.

So how on earth can it be checked? It's unlikely to even show in your bank account till the end of the day, and that doesn't distinguish different journeys.

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66290457 but loads of reports all over the various news outlets.

[ChrisB]

Yes to 'ticket' being journalese.

Your contactless can be checked to see whether they have a record of this in their payment system shortly after being tapped.

The Police Complaints procedure is investigating. I'm unsure that cuffs were necessary with a small child in tow.

[Bmblbzzz]

But can checking the contactless show what has been paid for? I took two bus journeys yesterday, paying for both by contactless, (neither in London, so possibly they have a different system) and all that's showing is a 10p "holding" charge.

[Ralph Ayres]

If the passenger has an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card the inspector can check on the spot. If contactless they can't do that, but the system feeds back that the card was checked on a bus (so was being used for a journey) and if the end of day processing finds it hadn't been tapped in then a "penalty" is charged.

As I understand it the lady was arrested not for fare evasion but for refusing to allow her card to be checked by a revenue inspector when asked and then trying to leave the scene without giving her details. Revenue staff have remarkably few powers to detain etc (and persistent fare dodgers know this so constantly get away with it) so as in this case they occasionally have police backup. Quite why she chose not to co-operate - and what if anything led to that - isn't clear and perhaps should be getting more attention.

The police may then have taken the view that someone trying to avoid a check may have more to hide than just an unpaid fare. They often discover weapons, drugs or pickpockets in such exercises, and having a child with you doesn't necessarily make you innocent.  The Met police statement I saw online was remarkably poor at explaining their part in the exercise, leaving many people thinking they had been called out specifically to deal with and arrest a single fare dodger.

The important bit which I haven't see clarified anywhere is exactly what happened before all the online videos. I would hope TfL^» (Transport for London - about) are also looking at their revenue team's behaviour in case that was a factor.

[Bmblbzzz]

I'm more interested in what exactly was being checked and how. The circumstances of the arrest are also interesting, but probably in other ways and for other threads. (Yes, I misnamed this one.) Thanks for the information in the posts above.

[paul7575]

I believe on TfL^» (Transport for London - about) buses the revenue inspector can download a list of contactless cards that have been touched in, and when he scans a card he will be warned if it is not touched in.  They can only do this on buses, and no other mode, because only the bus carries its touch in data around with it.   

If you are on anything except a bus, then all they can do with contactless is to attempt to touch you in, this will only fail if the card is hotlisted due to previous issues. Otherwise the touch is resolved later as already mentioned.

Paul

[Mark A]

The important bit which I haven't see clarified anywhere is exactly what happened before all the online videos. I would hope TfL^» (Transport for London - about) are also looking at their revenue team's behaviour in case that was a factor.

Agree it needs more context. In Croydon, changing from train to tram yesterday at the end of the afternoon the atmosphere for various reasons was quite oppressive and more so for women - though its nature should have meant that they would have welcomed the appearance of anything resembling a revenue team.

Also on the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) to Lewisham on Monday I had my ticket checked - the guy was lovely about it but firmly believed that a national rail ticket with cross-London transfer included wasn't valid on DLR. This is partly down to the Elizabeth line, which has enabled a lot of new interchange options so staff are unfamiliar. We didn't want to start talking knives on the DLR but were able to point out that the ticket had the † that indicated it was valid.

Despite him checking tickets aboard the train, there was on arrival at Lewisham a mahoosively obvious amount of fare evasion from people not touching out and one guy acting edgily and looking for confrontation with all comers, so that would be somewhere for a revenue protection team...

Mark

[ChrisB]

Also on the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) to Lewisham on Monday I had my ticket checked - the guy was lovely about it but firmly believed that a national rail ticket with cross-London transfer included wasn't valid on DLR. This is partly down to the Elizabeth line, which has enabled a lot of new interchange options so staff are unfamiliar. We didn't want to start talking knives on the DLR but were able to point out that the ticket had the † that indicated it was valid.

My understanding of that cross was that you could use the London Underground (is the DLR underground?) or London Buses between two national rail stations. Is The Elizabeth Line part of London Underground or has it been added to the allowed routes?

[Mark A]

I think so - the National Rail site will happily recommend routes by both the Elizabeth Line and the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway). This morning it was also happy to send me Blackheath to Abbey Wood and then Paddington (I declined that one but when things are running it's quick, especially given the hit from imposed London Bridge shenanigans on South Eastern Trains).

Mark

[stuving]

I think so - the National Rail site will happily recommend routes by both the Elizabeth Line and the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway). This morning it was also happy to send me Blackheath to Abbey Wood and then Paddington (I declined that one but when things are running it's quick, especially given the hit from imposed London Bridge shenanigans on South Eastern Trains).

Mark

National Rail themselves say:

If your journey involves travelling via or across London to connect with another National Rail service, your ticket should include the cost of transfer on London Underground, DLR, Thameslink or Elizabeth line services between the relevant stations.

Your ticket will be marked with a cross ( + ) sign.

So yes to trains, running on tracks, but no to buses.

[paul7575]

Also on the DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway) to Lewisham on Monday I had my ticket checked - the guy was lovely about it but firmly believed that a national rail ticket with cross-London transfer included wasn't valid on DLR. This is partly down to the Elizabeth line, which has enabled a lot of new interchange options so staff are unfamiliar. We didn't want to start talking knives on the DLR but were able to point out that the ticket( had the † that indicated it was valid.

My understanding of that cross was that you could use the London Underground (is the DLR underground?) or London Buses between two national rail stations. Is The Elizabeth Line part of London Underground or has it been added to the allowed routes?

Although Lewisham (DLR) is in the National Rail list of cross London transfer stations, it’s not in the LU version of the list in their ticketing handbook - presumably because the latter is intended for underground staff.  It’s possible that’s confused the revenue inspector, depending who he works for?

On the other hand, the National Rail guidance doesn’t mention buses being generally available, although it does mention the use of night buses when the underground is closed.

Paul