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Author Topic: Who made the seating design decision?  (Read 19730 times)
Karl
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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2008, 14:13:57 »

Afternoon

Does your tape measure have a safety case???!!! LOL (laughing out loud).
What did the Train Manager say???!!!  Whats next?

Regards

Karl.

quote author = dog box

A lot has been written about leg room before and i
took a tape measure to an HST (High Speed Train) and voyager and in a
non priority seat you have more room.
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Btline
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2008, 16:29:04 »

How many more inches are there on a FGW (First Great Western) refurb HST (High Speed Train) than a vomiter?
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The SprinterMeister
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2008, 19:35:00 »

Evening

Well to be honest with you The Sprinter Meister
(and prehaps I should of worded my message better),
does it have to test at 125mph?  Can't it be done
at night where it is less of an intrusion to other
services?

As you mentioned c67's are 125mph locos, plus the
fact that only 005/6 and 029 do anything much these
days anyway, the other's only pushing freight trains
around along with the odd charter periodolicly.
Arn't some of these already in store?  Some could be
put to far better use than they are, such as using
them to do tests.  As regards to running around,
top and tail them, but that might not be necessary
now, as NR» (Network Rail - home page) have a MRK2 DBSO (Driving Brake Standard Open (carriage)) (which were used with c86
and c90 on Norwich services as a driving end trailers),
which 'if my memory serves me correct' are 100mph
capable.  

But the main reason I commented is that HSTs (High Speed Train) are going
to be around for a considerable while, until they get
this HST2 project going.  With some TOC (Train Operating Company)'s now having
to look at MRK3 hauled stock, scrounging around for
odd spare power cars here and there, or hire ins (as
the 220/221 DEMUs (Diesel Electric Multiple Unit) e.t.c which you rightly said were
meant to replace HST's but are not up to the job).
It begs another question if NR have to obtain HST power
cars, then why do they need have as much as they already
got on their books?

Some people may disagree with me, but I think this whole
220/1 and HST sets being cast away to NR was a badly dealt
with.  But thats only my humble opinion.

Sorry for the slightly long winded version!

Regards

Karl.  

In many cases the NMT has to go about its buisness on days simply because of the fact so much of the rail network closes after (in some cases before) the last service train. Taunton -  Exeter shuts down quite early and the up / down sleepers goes through under SLW or more infrequently diverts via Yeovil. The High output ballast cleaner and track renewal train are working on that section. And thats just one example. There are numerous other bits of the UK (United Kingdom) simarlarly affected.

Testing has to take place at 125mph on certain routes simply to keep clear of other trains and if you think about it the logical speed at which to test the ride parameters is the speed of the fastest train that uses the route. The class 37 hauled test train supplements the NMT on routes where the speed is lower and which can support the axle weight of locomotive hauled trains. On branch lines the class 150/1 based track recording unit is used. The class 37 hauled train is rather less comprehensive in the range of tests it does if I remember correctly.

The class 67 locomotive has a very high RA due to weighing 90 tons spread over four axles. The design speed was 125mph, but you will find that none of them are now cleared to run at that speed. This is due to the very high track forces that a 22.5 ton axleloading running at 125mph would generate. The HST powercar has a far lower track force (69 tons over four axles). It would indeed be rather ironic to use 67's at 125mph to find they are damaging the very track they are hauling test trains over. 67's are cleared for 110mph. Most of the class 67's are now in use, new operators such as the new Wrexham operator and GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) spot hires spring to mind.

The Network Rail DBSO's are being converted from their previous use and are being fitted out for controlling diesel locomotives fitted with 'Blue Square' multiple unit equipment. This is compatible with the DRS (Direct Rail Services Ltd) locomotives by means of an adaptor plug as although the pin configuration is different the functions of the 27 wires remain the same. The 'Blue Square' MU (Multiple Unit) system is completely incompatible with the GM loco classes such as 59/66/67, all of which use the Association of American Railroads (AAR» (Association of American Railroads - about)) control system. Therefore a class 67 cannot operate in conjunction with a NR DBSO. The DBSO's will now no longer be able to control AC electric locomotives either.

As the HST NMT is run as a semi permanent set, it is possible to fit equipment such as forward facing high defenition cameras to the power cars for video surveying etc. You will recall that evidence from these cameras was used in the ongoing enquiry into the fatal Grayrigg derailment. This is rather more complex to arrange where a locomotive which is more readily detacheable (and possibly hired in from a third party) is involved.

The large number of power cars in the NMT pool is required I guess to ensure there are enough servicable power cars to cover the NMT duties. I seem to remember there was talk of forming up a second NMT to assist in the considerable workload. I don't think the TOC's spot hire powercars much nowadays, certainly not Grand Central who run a minus availability figure most of the time.

It seems on the face of it a waste of HST rolling stock, however the ability for Network Rail to properly survey its assets without fouling up the passenger service or the overnight maintainance is in my view probably to the greater good than two less than complete HST rakes. Unless somebody is prepared to sell them a couple of Voyagers. And pick up the tab for reverse engineering the NMT trailers (most of which are ex buffet cars) into passenger stock.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 19:40:15 by The SprinterMeister » Logged

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John R
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2008, 19:53:42 »

A very comprehensive answer.

I would just add that when there was around a quarter of the HST (High Speed Train) fleet lying idle it seemed a very sensible use of stock which was otherwise (as was seen to be the case) going to rot. So we are where we are.

The point here is that we are now short of 125mph diesel stock (assuming as seems likely the bidding for the Adelantes will be oversubscribed.) Surely, given even the government is now in favour of electrification the answer is to find a route over which such stock runs, and which happens to be totally under the wires, and then build electric trains for that route. So add around 10 x 7 car pendolinos to the existing order, and replace the Voyagers on the Birmingham - Scotland route. By the time they are built there will be an even greater shortage of capacity on routes appropriate for Voyagers.

Oh yes, and electrifying Newark to the newly resignalled Lincoln (only 16 miles) would enable the new NXEC (National Express East Coast) service to be an electric service as well, instead of each train running 120 miles of the 136 mile journey under the wires.

Oops, just noticed the topic. We've all gone a bit off topic haven't we. Sorry.       
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Ollie
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2008, 03:19:45 »

Seeing as I haven't seen the actual answer posted. I will post the following 2 names.

Michael Rodber and Mike Muldoon.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/NewsItem.aspx?id=414
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 03:22:59 by Ollie » Logged
Steve44
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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2008, 08:24:04 »

I guess you can't please everyone....
The trouble is, because of the lack of stock + the amount of people on the services provided = very crowded trains, FGW (First Great Western) did what they could, and there are more seats now.  I have trouble with leg room everywhere, on buses, in cars, and especially on the turbos.. but the new seats give me ample.  I do understand what people mean about leaning back though, i'm 6 foot and i still don't feel all that comfortable doing so, but i don't sit there thinking how awful the seat feels, nor do i worry about it after.. the one big negative i have to point out is the lighting.  It's bad enough in the day to look out of the window, but from dusk onwards, you got no chance!
I was travelling on one from Oxford to Paddington yesturday and until it had reached Reading, it wasn't exactly heaving, though this was at half twelve in the afternoon.  I think, for the length of journey it is, at this time of day, a 2+3car turbo would be adequate, as 2 more Padd-Oxf services passed me that weren't exactly busy.  I know it can get bad during mornings and evenings so i understand the use of them at those times. 
I was sat thinking on my way in how it's quite a shame that the purpose of these trains aren't really what they used to be for... i'd hardly call Oxford - Paddingon intercity.. just seems a waste for an intercity HST (High Speed Train) to be on a 55minute journey.  Guess they've just got to use what they've got.  I'm not complaining, cause i don't mind them myself.  Just a shame about the adelante's because they were good for this type of route, in my opinion.
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Toiletdriver
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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2008, 11:21:04 »

Paddington - Oxford 2+7 HST (High Speed Train) with less than an hours journey.

Penzance -Dundee 4 or 5 coaches for about 12 hours!

That's the 21st century railway for you!
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devon_metro
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2008, 11:26:49 »

Oxford and London are two major cities, so should really have a decent high speed 'intercity' link. The Voyager plan was just short sighted!! The submission of Virgin by planning on bringing back HSTs (High Speed Train) proves what a silly mistake they made.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2008, 13:11:41 »

I guess you can't please everyone....
The trouble is, because of the lack of stock + the amount of people on the services provided = very crowded trains, FGW (First Great Western) did what they could, and there are more seats now.  I have trouble with leg room everywhere, on buses, in cars, and especially on the turbos.. but the new seats give me ample.  I do understand what people mean about leaning back though, i'm 6 foot and i still don't feel all that comfortable doing so, but i don't sit there thinking how awful the seat feels, nor do i worry about it after.. the one big negative i have to point out is the lighting.  It's bad enough in the day to look out of the window, but from dusk onwards, you got no chance!
I was travelling on one from Oxford to Paddington yesturday and until it had reached Reading, it wasn't exactly heaving, though this was at half twelve in the afternoon.  I think, for the length of journey it is, at this time of day, a 2+3car turbo would be adequate, as 2 more Padd-Oxf services passed me that weren't exactly busy.  I know it can get bad during mornings and evenings so i understand the use of them at those times. 
I was sat thinking on my way in how it's quite a shame that the purpose of these trains aren't really what they used to be for... i'd hardly call Oxford - Paddingon intercity.. just seems a waste for an intercity HST (High Speed Train) to be on a 55minute journey.  Guess they've just got to use what they've got.  I'm not complaining, cause i don't mind them myself.  Just a shame about the adelante's because they were good for this type of route, in my opinion.

I agree. Adelantes are pretty much ideal for off-peak services, providing the quality of seating and the capacity to cope easily. Many services off the Cotswold Line need to be HST's though as they get very busy from Oxford/Reading/Slough otherwise, but even a couple of those are better suited to Adelantes.

I also agree with the seating on the HST's - I've never had a problem with legroom and I'm 6' 3" - most Voyager seats are decidedly more cramped unless you're lucky enough to get the few at the ends of the carriage which are really spacious. As for lighting, there's a little switch by the top of the internal vestibule doors that will switch that coach from full to half lighting - many Train Managers already do this at night as otherwise they're so bright you feel like you're getting a tan! I wouldn't hesitate to operate the switch if it's getting dark and they're still on full (or at least ask a member of staff to do it!). When on half lighting they are still brighter than the old design, but are far better than when on full.
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Steve44
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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2008, 22:15:32 »


I agree. Adelantes are pretty much ideal for off-peak services, providing the quality of seating and the capacity to cope easily. Many services off the Cotswold Line need to be HST (High Speed Train)'s though as they get very busy from Oxford/Reading/Slough otherwise, but even a couple of those are better suited to Adelantes.

Oh yeh, i don't dispute that.  I used to travel regularly from Charlbury to London every sunday and always found it appauling that the only fast Oxford to Paddington service on a sunday were ones from the cotswold line and, quite often, being ran by Turbos! even an adelante was crammed full. 

I agree with your point Deven_metro, they are indeed two major cities, but the turbos can move quite fast, and when substituted, which happens an awful lot, they don't really lose time, the only downfall is, they're looking very tired!!
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smokey
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« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2008, 17:58:31 »

Just returned from three weeks travelling on Northern European rail systems. Arrived back at Paddington yesterday morning from Brussels and had a shock - I'd forgotten how awful the new seats are on FGW (First Great Western)'s HSTs (High Speed Train). You sit down and 50cm in front of your eyes there's a slab of grey plastic with (to add insult to injury) a FGW logo button in the middle of it.

A lot of the point and pleasure of rail travel is the ability to watch the world go by, but these new seats totally negate that opportunity. Look left and right - all you can see (except for the lucky third of passengers who can sit by a window) are similar slabs of grey plastic. You can't even see other passengers or the train staff (so no chance of nipping into the bog on their approach!), and you can't see whether there are vacant seats without peering at each one. If carriages had video displays (has anyone thought of that?) they would be invisible.

No other train we went on in the whole (5000+ km) trip (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany and Eurostar) had such high seat backs. Neither did Spanish trains on an earlier trip (smug smug).

I assume that at some point in the redesign process some callow young designer came up with this whizzy idea and that the FGW manager in charge of approving the whole thing either went along with the CYD's whizzy idea or didn't notice. They must have cost more than seats with the top at eye height as well. Was there a rationale behind the decision? Maybe this topic has been aired elsewhere but I've not seen it so apologies if so.

I'd love to know who was responsible for taking a bit of pleasure out of the rail experience. Anyone able to divulge? I promise not to take any action but there is an accountability issue here.



Now blame H & S for the awful high seat backs on FGW HST's.

BUT....

H & S is a European wide Issue so IF there is an H & S ruling to have High Seat backs, then it applies across all European menber states or is it the RSSB (Rail Safety and Standards Board) pushing it's weight around?
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Phil
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« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2008, 20:07:54 »

I have a sneaking suspicion that health and safety have nothing to do with the chosen height of the FGW (First Great Western) seat backs.

Call me cynical, but I seem to remember the high backs started appearing around the same time as the Volo (I think it was) experimental television screens in carriages, and they have been intentionally designed that high to enable screens and /or advertising to be affixed to them in future. The odd looking FGW logo in the middle or "plug" serves to feed cables to said screens, which would be held into position using the bracket which is currently being used to hold the safety cards.

I know this sounds a bit like a crazy conspiracy theory, but in my mind it all seemed to made sense as I dozed off on the trip back from Bristol the other day!
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Btline
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« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2008, 00:12:21 »

I expect that the Volo TV idea was to trial high back all airline seats!
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« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2008, 23:20:34 »

the most comfortable trains i have been on recently are the swt class 159's comfortable seats clean there not a quiet as the hst's well we all know why but i have fell asleep on one of these units, only bad thing i have noticed.... that stupid flimsy door between standard and first class... why??? why spoil such a good refurb? it rattles no door handles so its covered in hand prints people never open it first time and it doesnt even work i saw so many people just walk threw and sit down and oh no they did not pay for first class!! ( relocated to standard 10 mins later) also i have never seen one of these units with people standing up? i have seen a platform full at exeter central all get onto the 9 car unit and there were still a couple of seats, to be honest half the time this train is 3-6 carriges and isnt that busy.... why does southwest trains get really nice rolling stock when the exmouth line has 1 million passengers a year and is always packed out get pacers?
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devon_metro
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« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2008, 23:25:19 »

Because the 159s go to Waterloo...
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