Thames Turbos

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

Be interested if anyone could direct me to a decent source of operating diagrams IE what are 165/166s used on ? how are they diagrammed for those duties ?

Quite loosely is the answer. There are of course diagrams specific to the three different types, but apart from making absolutely sure that 2-car trains are on the Bicester and Greenford's the rest is a bit of a lottery sometimes - especially during the day when a failure or other disruptions can result in 'stepping-up' of other units rapidly throwing the whole thing into confusion.

Depending what's on depot overnight at the two major stabling points (Reading and Oxford) any changes during the day can usually be unravelled in time for the start of service the next day.

[Don]

Be interested if anyone could direct me to a decent source of operating diagrams IE what are 165/166s used on ? how are they diagrammed for those duties ?

Originally the air conditioned class 166 were supposed to be used on longer distance semi-fast trains like Paddington to Worcester, but although that still happens to a degree, like Industry Insider said, other factors take preference.

[inspector_blakey]

Thames Trains used to allocate the 165/166 fleet quite strictly: it was very rare to see a 166 on a stopping service from OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and conversely it was very rare to see a 165 on a fast train.

The fleets started to be used much more interchangeably towards the end of the Thames franchise and once FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and the Adelantes arrived (and latterly since HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) returned to the fast services). Now it's not unusual to see either type of unit, although the stoppers are more often 165 than 166. I doubt many passengers notice the difference, seeing as the air conditioning on the 166s never works anyway. Take this out of the equation and the only major differences are carpets in 166s, lino in 165s, first class at both ends with larger tables, more luggage space and a small section in the centre car of a 166 with 2+2 seating and full-size tables.

[Electric train]

In the summer you notice when 166's are on the local services they are unbearable and all year round with 166's as they have reduced seating, all the TT's are getting very tiered the windows don't shut properly and the ones that do seal properly you can not open in the summer seats, flooring and internal bulkheads are getting shabby they need stripping out and refitting in the same layout as the Heathrow Connect trains, the need for First Class in the TT's is debatable.

[amiddl]

And there was I thinking there was a really organized system of allocating types and units to duties!!!!

Thanks

Andy

[Btline]

The air conditioning needs fixing/installing, the windows need sealing shut (a la Chiltern).

They need to be re-engined/geared, and they need re-furbing.

And they need to be banned from running any Cotswold services bar the halts train!

[devon_metro]

The air conditioning needs fixing/installing, the windows need sealing shut (a la Chiltern).

They need to be re-engined/geared, and they need re-furbing.

And they need to be banned from running any Cotswold services bar the halts train!

I think fixing the windows shut would be drastic. Perhaps a T key operated window would be better.

[Btline]

Fair enough - anything to prevent selfish people opening the windows and thus heating up the train for everyone!

[johoare]

hhm, as long as they only fix the windows shut after the air conditioning is fixed properly.. People tend to only open the windows if the train is hot in my experience...

[IndustryInsider]

They need to be re-engined/geared, and they need re-furbing.

They are of course getting a refurb - eventually. Though what form it is taken I have yet to find out. Why would you re-gear them, Btline?

[Btline]

Better reliability, less failures, etc.

I have been on a unit where the engine kept cutting out every few seconds. I fear the problem will only get worse, as the units get older, unless something is done.

[IndustryInsider]

Better reliability, less failures, etc.

I have been on a unit where the engine kept cutting out every few seconds. I fear the problem will only get worse, as the units get older, unless something is done.

OIC as in just replace the transmission rather than actually alter the gearing? There's not much of an engine problem with Turbos as they stand - at least when compared with Adelantes and Voyagers where more often than not at least one engine isn't firing. They might not be blessed with too much HP but the turbo charger helps make them respectable. Perhaps new higher rated engines could be installed sometime though (as Chiltern are probably going to do)?

Engines very rarely cut out and back in every few seconds - they either idle when they're too hot (mostly in the summer), or power normally. What you may have experienced is the speed cut-out governor kicking in which does so at just over 90mph. If the driver has the train on full power it will cut all power then and then reapply it when the speed drops below 90mph.

[willc]

Whether it is still accurate, I don't know, but last November a report about the likely scope of Turbo overhaul was presented to London Travelwatch.

It can be seen at http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/3592/get

There seems to be no prospect of air con for 165s and the intention seems to be to remove some seats in 165s to make more room for standing, and keep 3+2 in 166s.

First class could be ditched from 165s - though I'm not clear how realistic this is with the inter-working of sets, as they serve south Oxfordshire stations where there is a modest take-up of first class seasons and the Cotswold Line certainly needs first class. Even in the days when it was supposed to be pretty much all 166s, if there was a failure a three-car 165 would appear because of the seating capacity issue and if this happened, it was likely not all those with first class tickets would get a first class seat.

[IndustryInsider]

Interesting link, Will. Thanks.

Probably still accurate, though it would have been nice for them to have gone to the effort of providing a photo of a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) turbo for the illustration rather than a pre-refurbed Chiltern 165/0!

Anyway, a couple of more relevant comments; good to see the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) system getting replaced as the current system is quite old and inflexible. First Class removal is a far more contentious issue as Will rightly points out the interchangeability of the fleet doesn't lend itself to this. Also, if FGW uses that as an excuse to say it's providing 16-20 extra seats per set for commuters, then it will be kidding nobody in the know as the 1st Class is usually quickly filled by 'hoodies' and others who don't have 1st Class tickets on the suburban trains of west London anyway. Whether removal of the 2+3 seating will make much difference to the standing patterns of passengers remains to be seen.

No air-con on the 165's isn't surprising as the cost of a full refurb like Chiltern did is not easily justifiable without having many years of franchise left to get the outlay back, though to claim that it 'worsens the weight limit problem' is a bit of a hollow argument considering Chiltern's efforts. Let's hope the modification of the Class 166's air-con means a real improvement - rather than a clean out and replacement of components in the existing system which will soon perform badly again. And I repeat again, the main problem is the passengers opening the windows making whatever efforts the air-con is putting in worthless.

[willc]

Contained within the East Customer Panel minutes is the following info about the refresh programme, which seems to be cut back from what London Travelwatch were told, though 165s will keep first class. There now seems little prospect of a full air-con refit for the 166s - in addition to the details given below, a question was asked which got the following response:

2) Will there be a temperature control on the refurbished fleet? R.R replied that we would be spending some money on the air-conditioning, which will be a marked improvement, but to get a similar standard to that on Chiltern^s carriages you would have to spend a lot of money and unfortunately in the current climate we simply cant afford to.  The refurbishment is a ^6m franchise commitment, 1st Class will NOT be removed and 3+2 seating will remain.

Business Update
Presentation by Richard Rowland, Route Director (East)

Turbo refresh ^ confidential
^   Revised scope of work for 151 vehicles
^   Base proposition:    ^6.63 million   (c^44k per vehicle)
^   Stretch proposition:   ^7.13 million   (c^47k per vehicle)

^   Fuller refresh on the class 166 fleet
^   Lighter refresh on the class 165 fleet
^   To be completed at the depot in Reading

^   All vehicles in both fleets will receive the following:
^   Upgrade Passenger Information System (PIS^▸ (Passenger Information System))
^   Fitment of laminated glass
^   Cab refresh

Turbo refresh ^ PIS
^   Fully compliant with all UK^▸ (United Kingdom) legal requirements
^   Railway Group Standards
^   Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 1998
^   Technical Standard for Interoperability.
^   The PIS provides:
^   External Destination Indicator on front of each cab
^   Moving message displays in the passenger saloon of every vehicle
^   Automated announcements
^   GPS to control the PIS
^   Driver PA^▸ (Public Address)

Turbo refresh ^ 166 scope of works
^   Existing seats will be recovered or
^   Stretch refreshment - renewal of seat and sub frames. Existing vehicle layouts
^   Renewal of flooring in saloon, vestibules and toilets.
^   Renewal of First Class tables
^   Fit anti-graffiti film
^   Refresh of interior to include:
^   Painting of vehicle interior, including ceilings, wall panels, bulkheads, window  panels and toilets.
^   Fitment of poster frames and magazine racks
^   Renewal of toilet seat, toilet lid and coat hooks
^   Replacement of dado panels
^   Renewal of signage


Turbo refresh ^ 165 scope of works
^   Renewal of seat moquette on all seat bases and backs
^   Renewal of flooring in saloon, vestibules and toilets
^   Fit anti-graffiti film
^   Refresh of interior to include:
^   Painting of vehicle interior, including ceilings, wall panels, bulkheads, window panels and toilets.
^   Fitment of poster frames and magazine racks
^   Renewal of toilet seat, toilet lid and coat hooks
^   Renewal of signage

Turbo refresh ^works programme
^   Refresh works
^   Design/procurement phase: Spring 2009
^   Production phase: Summer 2009 to Spring 2010
^   PIS
^   Completion in Spring 2010
^   Funding not available for mock up