200 new coaches to be brought forward

[whole diary]

[tramway]

Personally I have a few concerns about losing the 158's and being replaced with a super 150. 1/3 2/3 openings on a planned 'intercity' service would be a retrograde step, why would SWT^▸ (South West Trains) etc be trying to get hold of any spare 158 going.

Are there any new builds with end doors?

[willc]

Personally I have a few concerns about losing the 158's and being replaced with a super 150. 1/3 2/3 openings on a planned 'intercity' service would be a retrograde step, why would SWT^▸ (South West Trains) etc be trying to get hold of any spare 158 going.

Are there any new builds with end doors?

The problem is that many of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s services these days have to cover a mix of commuter and long-distance needs in the same journey and for the bits with heavy commuter flows, 1/3 and 2/3 doors keep station dwell times to a minimum.

The station times of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), Adelantes and Voyagers at the likes of Reading and Oxford in the peaks can be horrendous - and the same applies to 158s when I've used them elsewhere - whereas Turbos load and unload fast, so any extra stock coming to Thames Valley routes really does need 1/3, 2/3 doors. And I'm guessing that on Cardiff-Portsmouth, they would come in very handy for the big city calls in the peaks. The 185s have 1/3, 2/3 doors due to the heavy commuter traffic in TransPennine's area.

If you fit the right quality of interior, you can still give a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) the right feel for longer-distance work. I don't think anyone's envisaging 3+2 seating on Cardiff-Portsmouth.

[John R]

If you fit the right quality of interior, you can still give a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) the right feel for longer-distance work. I don't think anyone's envisaging 3+2 seating on Cardiff-Portsmouth.

Agree, the Class 170s are the same, and the Scotrail versions would certainly be an acceptable ambience for the Portsmouth line.   

[tramway]

The problem is that many of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s services these days have to cover a mix of commuter and long-distance needs in the same journey and for the bits with heavy commuter flows, 1/3 and 2/3 doors keep station dwell times to a minimum.

lol, I would agree if the 20 min lay over at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) was removed.

[eightf48544]

Personally I have a few concerns about losing the 158's and being replaced with a super 150. 1/3 2/3 openings on a planned 'intercity' service would be a retrograde step, why would SWT^▸ (South West Trains) etc be trying to get hold of any spare 158 going.

Are there any new builds with end doors?

The problem is that many of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s services these days have to cover a mix of commuter and long-distance needs in the same journey and for the bits with heavy commuter flows, 1/3 and 2/3 doors keep station dwell times to a minimum.

If you fit the right quality of interior, you can still give a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) the right feel for longer-distance work. I don't think anyone's envisaging 3+2 seating on Cardiff-Portsmouth.

It seems to me that what this post is beginning to show is that the same DMU cannot be both a suburban/branch  and a cross country unit.

Agree choice is now only a 185 a ^2 million a coach and grossley overpowered and a 172 at around a ^1 million a coach.

Which is why loco and coaches is begging to look viable both for IC^▸ (Inter City) and Cross Country. Especialy if there is further electrification which enabl Cardiff Portsmaouth to be eletric may be dual voltage but that doesn't seem to be problem these days.

The great advantage seems to me that coaches are relatively cheap, give a better journey experience, no diesel engine under the floor, and last a lot longer, consider the remaining Mark 1s on charters. They can be hauled by diesel or electric and thus aren't redundant when the wires go up. Performance under the wires should be better than a high powered DMU with considerably less carbon emissions.  It should also encourage sensible infill electrification to eliminate loco changes on through routes.  Anglia had different length sets which they carefully rostered throughout the day to meet demand.

[Timmer]

Oh how I would love to see a return of loco and coaches to everyday service on long distance services currently provided by DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). As willc says they provide so much more flexability and last a lot longer too.

[IndustryInsider]

Oh how I would love to see a return of loco and coaches to everyday service on long distance services currently provided by DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). As willc says they provide so much more flexability and last a lot longer too.

Well, there's a flip side in respect to flexibility too in so much as you either need to top-and-tail the locos or have turn-round facilities which take up space and huge amounts of time. Also, the loss of one engine on a DMU isn't curtains like it is when a loco fails. I can certainly see certain areas benefiting from that type of traction though.

[eightf48544]

Oh how I would love to see a return of loco and coaches to everyday service on long distance services currently provided by DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). As willc says they provide so much more flexability and last a lot longer too.

Well, there's a flip side in respect to flexibility too in so much as you either need to top-and-tail the locos or have turn-round facilities which take up space and huge amounts of time. Also, the loss of one engine on a DMU isn't curtains like it is when a loco fails. I can certainly see certain areas benefiting from that type of traction though.

One of teh comments made by the DafT in their anti electrification phase was that electric traction was too compicated. Hopefully they've begun to get message that once you've got infrastructure EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) are a far simplier beast than DMU. Hence the best EMUs getting 50K between failures whilst most DMUs are luky to get 10K.

To make locos haulage viable auto couplers with a power connection for coach domestics would be required. Although you could use a generator van (old Mark2) when under diesel and a pan on the DVT^‡(resolve). As for layouts  a couple of crossovers at right places would solve the problem although hope fully with clever infill electrification a loco change on many routes  may not be needed e.g Euston Blackpool.

You could have a dual voltage electric loco hauled service from Bournmouth or anywhere else on the Southern) to Norwich with a few yards of conductor rail between the juctions at Kew and Bollo Lane.  What about wires between Acton main line and Acton Wells and and Dudding Hill and Acton Canal Wharf junction to Willesden. Loco hauled electrics from Heathrow to Birmingham and Manchester. EMU shuttles  Luton (Airport) Heathrow.

[paul7575]

Personally I have a few concerns about losing the 158's and being replaced with a super 150. 1/3 2/3 openings on a planned 'intercity' service would be a retrograde step, why would SWT^▸ (South West Trains) etc be trying to get hold of any spare 158 going.

Are there any new builds with end doors?

I don't believe SWT had any real issues with the 170's layout or door location, after all they have plenty of 450s on long runs with 1/3 2/3 doors. The primary reason was that they wanted a common fleet type with better casualty figures.  A fleet with gangways for revenue protection, ease of passenger movement for SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), and catering trolley access were additional benefits.

The above was mentioned by SWT management when the first overhauled 159/1 was introduced to the press at Salisbury. What wasn't publicly mentioned was the possibility that leasing costs were better for an older fleet owned by one Rosco, if you recall they also released two 158s from whatever the otrher Rosco was...

[tramway]

Although it would be nice to see loco hauled ie a 47 with DBSO^▸ (Driving Brake Standard Open (carriage)) as Anglia and ScotRail had, I appreciate it is highly unlikely now.

I can also see where 1/3 2/3 arrangement allows rapid detrain, but at this time of year that also goes for all the warm air.  Not very pleasant at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) on some services which hang around for 10 mins or more, any new build would clearly have to have timed auto shut doors. Without having experience of the ScotRail 170's the Portsmouth Cardiff's will have to have adequate luggage capacity. And after travelling to Gatwick recently it had better be better than that stock.

Currently the 158's are dual role and clearly unsuited, unfortunately I can't find the reference, but if a recent quote from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is to be believed then one interpretation is that there are plans for the route over and above the new stock, which I take as a possible timetable revamp.

[smithy]

turbostars have auto shut doors so that will help keep in the heat,also if they had auto shutting interior doors like LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) 170's that would be better still.
luggage space is down to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) ordering them basically they choose space or extra seats,i agree though pompey-cardiff do need decent luggage space. if 172's are destined for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) land then the lets hope the management have experienced a pompey run on friday afternoon to see how busy they are.

[devon_metro]

The beauty of them is that they will be 4 coaches, so a massive compromise on luggage space wont be required in order to provide seating.

[John R]

First class as well?

[willc]

The beauty of them is that they will be 4 coaches, so a massive compromise on luggage space wont be required in order to provide seating.

Except no-one has actually come up with any hard facts about formations yet, nor explained how any extra stock for the Thames Valley fits in, which as I pointed out earlier, was where DafT projected most extra FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stock was going - a need which hasn't suddenly disappeared, unless Crossrail does actually make it to Reading, which might change things.

[Timmer]

First class as well?

I think there should be as there would be a market for it.