Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[a-driver]

It would be nice to have trains on boxing day, but do we really need it? 

However, I have a lot of sympathy for the view that just because people want to go sales shopping/watch football on Boxing Day the railway shouldn't feel obliged to meet that demand. Both of those are discretionary activities.

I think that sums up the railways attitude to its customers to a tee and perfectly illustrates the complacency of a monopoly supplier - if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) faced real competition you'd all get an almighty fright!

FGW/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would never face real competition, and the same would apply to any other train operating company in the country.
All TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are ultimately controlled by the government. I still stand by the fact that if the franchise were to change hands no passenger would notice any difference in the level of service. Virtually everything to do with the operation of a franchise is set in stone by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  Train operators have little wriggle room.
The only chance of competition would be through an Open Access operator and they would be so small the threat would be minimal. Indeed, Virgin Trains West Coast effectively forced an Open Access out of business.

As for stores opening on Boxing Day. John Lewis remained shut and are still in business. Companies like that should be commended and will earn far more loyalty and goodwill from its employees. The railway runs on goodwill (and tea)

[grahame]

I still stand by the fact that if the franchise were to change hands no passenger would notice any difference in the level of service.

Historically, I can assure you that I (a passenger) noticed a difference in the level of service when the First group took over from National Express and brought in their new timetable in December 2006 - and that new timetable has been described widely to me since as "a disaster".   

Things have changed - the pendulum has swung, and the record of that period is now historic with rail company, community, local councils understanding each other much better and supporting each other for the common goal / good. Occasionally we (the community) still need to be pragmatic / bite our tongues at what the council and/or TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) does, but at least we understand the driving forces a bit better and can help achieve common goals.

Looking wider, it's my view that it is worthwhile for the passenger community to engage with franchise bidders (as well as franchise specifiers via consultation processes) on the basis that all of the bids can better if the bidders are aware of local conditions, aspirations and quirks.   I am aware (well after the event) of what was (and wasn't) in some bids that didn't win, and the passenger / services would have been rather different ...

[John R]

It would be nice to have trains on boxing day, but do we really need it? 

However, I have a lot of sympathy for the view that just because people want to go sales shopping/watch football on Boxing Day the railway shouldn't feel obliged to meet that demand. Both of those are discretionary activities.

I think that sums up the railways attitude to its customers to a tee and perfectly illustrates the complacency of a monopoly supplier - if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) faced real competition you'd all get an almighty fright!

In the real world, if a business doesn't seek to meet the demands of its customers and they have a choice they will simply go elsewhere and that business will cease trading very swiftly - what is a business there for if not to meet its customers demands, discretionary or otherwise?

Notwithstanding the (perfectly understandable) desires of staff to spend the Christmas break with their families, not work on Sundays unless they wish to etc, the World has moved on from the 1970s and many of these terms, conditions and the attitudes/cultures they have bred belong there. I struggle to think of any service industries who still operate on this basis, apart from the Civil Service perhaps but even that is changing.

Anyway, I am eagerly anticipating the no doubt flawless return to something approaching normal working for LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) services into Paddington tomorrow morning!!!

Enjoy the remainder of Xmas/festive season!

I'm thinking based on the section I've highlighted that you think I am associated with the railway. Indeed I do have a long standing association with them... as a customer of many years, day in, day out.  So my comments should't be regarded as the attitude of GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) or Network Rail (and apologies if it has come across as such), but as someone who is trying to take a balanced view.  I also applaud John Lewis' stance on remaining closed on Boxing Day for what it's worth.

[IndustryInsider]

I'm thinking based on the section I've highlighted that you think I am associated with the railway. Indeed I do have a long standing association with them... as a customer of many years, day in, day out.  So my comments should't be regarded as the attitude of GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) or Network Rail (and apologies if it has come across as such), but as someone who is trying to take a balanced view.  I also applaud John Lewis' stance on remaining closed on Boxing Day for what it's worth.

And I am very much associated with GWR and am of the opinion that Boxing Day services should be much more widespread!  I'm sure TG was just generalising and using it to demonstrate his well worn argument that the railway industry is stuck in the 70s - and there is no doubt that a good percentage within the railway industry that don't think that there should be Boxing Day services.  But there are plenty that think there should, just as John R is one of the passengers that think their shouldn't be, but clearly there are plenty of passengers that think there should.

It's an argument that will run for many years and who knows what the 'correct' answer is.  The John Lewis situation is certainly interesting and I hadn't realised they remained shut.  The one sure-fire way to ensure there are more widespread Boxing Day rail services is for them to be specified in franchise agreements, and, for whatever reasons, successive governments have not done that despite plenty of opportunities.  I suggest those that want them strongly urge them to be included when upcoming franchise consultations take place.

[Sam290893]

Trying to find staff for Boxing Day trains will be hard
My partner is a train driver and we have a baby and Christmas is the only time we get together as a family as he can relax but if he was made to work Boxing Day trains this means he would have to go to bed at 4pm Christmas Day just to be up in time for the early shift!

[Electric train]

The one sure-fire way to ensure there are more widespread Boxing Day rail services is for them to be specified in franchise agreements, and, for whatever reasons, successive governments have not done that despite plenty of opportunities.

It my fall into the "if we (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)) include Boxing Day train services in franchise tenders the bidders will come back with conditions" this could mean HMG loosing revenue back from the franchise while the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) negotiates with its various Trade Unions which could take longer than the franchise and of course NR^» (Network Rail - home page) will have to do the same for its staff and we are not talking about just the Signalmen; maintenance and Route teams will need to be staffed .   

Accepted the Railways are a public service however we are talking about the removal of peoples right to a Public Holiday which if an employer tried to impose the terms it could spend years going through the Courts; unless of course HMG wishes to pass some primary legislation.

Boxing Day service if they where to run would be the bases of staff (TOC & NR) volunteering with the necessary inducement (last year I worked Boxing Day 200% pay plus day TOIL)   

[IndustryInsider]

Boxing Day service if they where to run would be the bases of staff (TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) & NR^» (Network Rail - home page)) volunteering with the necessary inducement (last year I worked Boxing Day 200% pay plus day TOIL)   

Yep, should be no problem staffing by asking for volunteers, at least initially to see if it's viable enough.  The TOCs that are running services, as far as I know, all do it on a voluntary basis - they offer an attractive return for which those drivers without too heavy Christmas commitments are persuaded.

As a suggestion you could start in 2020 post-Crossrail completion with a service that runs from say 8am to 8pm covering Reading/Heathrow to Shenfield/Abbey Wood every 30 minutes.  Then GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) (or whatever it may be called) could run during the same time period hourly from Bristol/Cardiff and Oxford to London with the usual stops, with perhaps an hourly service from Reading to Gatwick Airport to help with the airport flows.  See how successful and practical it is and if it works then maybe look at extensions to Swansea/Plymouth/Worcester and maybe a Portsmouth/Cardiff service.

Not too many volunteers required to run that service (as a percentage of the number of potentially eligible drivers), not too many really early shifts required as few would need to start before 6am to get the empty trains from the depot to the station, and not too many late finishes.

By that time most of the route would be covered by the TVSC^» (Thames Valley Signalling Centre - about) at Didcot or WROC at Cardiff making signalling arrangements much easier to sort out than they currently are.  Engineering upgrades will be completed and so we'd be back to needing much less of the wide-scale blockades we currently get.  Yes, it would cost the government money - but would be socially really useful.

[ellendune]

I think that sums up the railways attitude to its customers to a tee and perfectly illustrates the complacency of a monopoly supplier - if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) faced real competition you'd all get an almighty fright!

In the real world, if a business doesn't seek to meet the demands of its customers and they have a choice they will simply go elsewhere and that business will cease trading very swiftly - what is a business there for if not to meet its customers demands, discretionary or otherwise?

Notwithstanding the (perfectly understandable) desires of staff to spend the Christmas break with their families, not work on Sundays unless they wish to etc, the World has moved on from the 1970s and many of these terms, conditions and the attitudes/cultures they have bred belong there.

I struggle to think of any service industries who still operate on this basis, apart from the Civil Service perhaps but even that is changing.

Well John Lewis has been quoted as a example of a retailer that does not open on boxing day.  

Yes businesses need to meet the needs of their customers, but not necessarily every demand. Provision of good customer service day in day out (which I am sure most readers would agree the railways currently do not achieve for various reasons) would be far more benefit than provision of a service to take people to the sales on boxing day.  

A number of businesses (I am not just confining this to the rail sector) continue to admirably demonstrate that if management treat staff badly then they are unlikely to treat their customers any better.  

Add to this that if you are trying to employ skilled labour in a shortage, you need these people you need to treat them well or they will walk.  Then you cannot provide any service to your customers.  

There are businesses who employ unskilled people in an employers market and they can call the shots.  But I do not know any that are renowned for their quality of customer service.  

As for government.  They are fast becoming the worst of all employers (politician's massive ego's and lack of business skills because most have never had a proper job).  For example; there is a shortage of nurses in the NHS and most feel overworked an unable to do the correct job, so many leave, only solution is expensive agency nurses vicious cycle - spend more - more pressure on nurses to cut costs - less job satisfaction - more leave.  That is just plain bad management from the top down.  It is also disastrous customer service (Stafford?).  

Of course businesses should be run for the benefit of customers, but staff matter too as they provide the front line service.

[grahame]

As I read this thread and how we've moved on to discuss the wider matters - in this case - or running a Boxing Day passenger train service, I never cease to be amazed at the depth of thought, of knowledge, and of ideas expressed. You members are an impressive bunch, made that much more powerful by background, industry, and government background in some cases - and by the lack of such background in other cases which makes you ask the questions and put the points that those closer to the case would skip as being out beyond left field.

More specifics / comments to follow. Just wanted to get that off my chest!

[a-driver]

There was a significant cash incentive to work this Sunday just gone and only a few drivers opted to work leading to cancellations.

There was the list for volunteer drivers to work Christmas Day and Boxing Day just to go to the depot and start the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) up in order to prevent flat batteries etc and this attracted only a few names despite the pay offered and reasonable hours yet few people put their names forward.

To get enough drivers to run a passenger service would, in my opinion, by extremely difficult.

[Sam290893]

There was a significant cash incentive to work this Sunday just gone and only a few drivers opted to work leading to cancellations.

There was the list for volunteer drivers to work Christmas Day and Boxing Day just to go to the depot and start the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) up in order to prevent flat batteries etc and this attracted only a few names despite the pay offered and reasonable hours yet few people put their names forward.

To get enough drivers to run a passenger service would, in my opinion, by extremely difficult.

I can understand that it will be difficult as how many drivers will want to go to bed at 4pm on Christmas Day to be up for an early shift, my partner is a driver and we have a baby and Christmas is a fun time for us seeing out child having an amazing day I don't think my partner would want to miss out on our family Christmas by going to bed Christmas afternoon to be up in time for the early shift, I do give a lot of credit to drivers as my partner is on, but no one will want to give up their family Christmas they are just as entitled to Christmas as everyone else

[IndustryInsider]

There was a significant cash incentive to work this Sunday just gone and only a few drivers opted to work leading to cancellations.

To get enough drivers to run a passenger service would, in my opinion, by extremely difficult.

You make it sound as if there were loads of cancellations due to driver shortages - I can recall only a tiny number, and from the Daily Alteration Sheets I saw there were plenty of drivers allocated and plenty of spare (stand-by) drivers.  Also, there were of course many more trains running than would be required for the Boxing Day service that I suggested.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'll ask the question again.  If what you say is the case, how do the other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that provide a Boxing Day service manage to get enough volunteers?

I can understand that it will be difficult as how many drivers will want to go to bed at 4pm on Christmas Day to be up for an early shift, my partner is a driver and we have a baby and Christmas is a fun time for us seeing out child having an amazing day I don't think my partner would want to miss out on our family Christmas by going to bed Christmas afternoon to be up in time for the early shift, I do give a lot of credit to drivers as my partner is on, but no one will want to give up their family Christmas they are just as entitled to Christmas as everyone else

Just to repeat what I said in my previous post, if you operate an 8am-8pm service only, then there would be no drivers on a 'proper' early shift (i.e. 2-5am start) - other than perhaps the odd depot prepper that are already rostered for duty now when no trains run.  I can quite understand how in your situation it would not be something your partner would consider doing, but not all drivers have those commitments, and if you offer the right amount of money then, as Chiltern and others prove year-in-year-out, you will get enough volunteers.

[a-driver]

There was a significant cash incentive to work this Sunday just gone and only a few drivers opted to work leading to cancellations.

To get enough drivers to run a passenger service would, in my opinion, by extremely difficult.

You make it sound as if there were loads of cancellations due to driver shortages - I can recall only a tiny number, and from the Daily Alteration Sheets I saw there were plenty of drivers allocated and plenty of spare (stand-by) drivers.  Also, there were of course many more trains running than would be required for the Boxing Day service that I suggested.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'll ask the question again.  If what you say is the case, how do the other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that provide a Boxing Day service manage to get enough volunteers?

We had a total of at least 8 turns uncovered.

You will always get volunteers, those drivers that don't have families etc. I don't know what sort of offer they make to their drivers but on a network the size of GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) I don't think you would get enough to run a meaningful service on every route

[Sam290893]

There was a significant cash incentive to work this Sunday just gone and only a few drivers opted to work leading to cancellations.

To get enough drivers to run a passenger service would, in my opinion, by extremely difficult.

You make it sound as if there were loads of cancellations due to driver shortages - I can recall only a tiny number, and from the Daily Alteration Sheets I saw there were plenty of drivers allocated and plenty of spare (stand-by) drivers.  Also, there were of course many more trains running than would be required for the Boxing Day service that I suggested.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'll ask the question again.  If what you say is the case, how do the other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that provide a Boxing Day service manage to get enough volunteers?

I can understand that it will be difficult as how many drivers will want to go to bed at 4pm on Christmas Day to be up for an early shift, my partner is a driver and we have a baby and Christmas is a fun time for us seeing out child having an amazing day I don't think my partner would want to miss out on our family Christmas by going to bed Christmas afternoon to be up in time for the early shift, I do give a lot of credit to drivers as my partner is on, but no one will want to give up their family Christmas they are just as entitled to Christmas as everyone else

Just to repeat what I said in my previous post, if you operate an 8am-8pm service only, then there would be no drivers on a 'proper' early shift (i.e. 2-5am start) - other than perhaps the odd depot prepper that are already rostered for duty now when no trains run.  I can quite understand how in your situation it would not be something your partner would consider doing, but not all drivers have those commitments, and if you offer the right amount of money then, as Chiltern and others prove year-in-year-out, you will get enough volunteers.

My partner would happily work it just not while our baby is so young, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) had problems with drivers on the 27th some trains were cancelled because of lack of drivers this will always be a problem over the Christmas period unfortunately and especially if there are diverts on trains due to engineering works, eventually all TOCs will end up running trains Boxing Day but at the same time the track need engineering works it's trying to get the balance right as Christmas is the only big change they can close down the rail network

[grahame]

We had a total of at least 8 turns uncovered.

You will always get volunteers, those drivers that don't have families etc. I don't know what sort of offer they make to their drivers but on a network the size of GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) I don't think you would get enough to run a meaningful service on every route

I noted a lot of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) services to / from Waterloo 'capped' at Reading - and wondered if there was a staffing issue with a lack of staff / pilotpeople who knew the road rather than a more general issue?