NEW HEATHROW HUB

[whole diary]

[bemmy]

Which brings us back to an HSL - for goodness' sake even California is planning to build one now. How is it that we alone don't need one?

Because we're right and the rest of the world is wrong, as usual.  Next you'll be suggesting it's possible to run a train service 7 days a week! 

[simonw]

Hi

Not being a rail export, just a customer who commutes from Bristol to Reading and pays twice as much as colleagues who live in Southampton and Worcester, I can honestly say speed is not the issue, it is capacity.

I accept that adding extra capacity to the network will be difficult, but adding an HSL will be even more difficult.

On many lines it is not train frequency but size. We need longer trains, and on some routes double-deck trains may be an option.

[Electric train]

November 2008 BAA commit ^230 million to Crossrail

January 2009  3rd Runway at Heathrow announced

Hmm...............   

Cynic     

[John R]

Hi

Not being a rail export, just a customer who commutes from Bristol to Reading and pays twice as much as colleagues who live in Southampton and Worcester, I can honestly say speed is not the issue, it is capacity.

Though I 'm sure you wouldn't complain if the services whisked you from Temple Meads to Reading in 1 hr 4 mins, as they did 30 years ago, instead of the 1 hr 14 we have today. (Similar savings from Parkway weere available, if you commute from there.)

[Btline]

High speed rail will not work as well in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)!

In France, Spain and other countries, cities are spread out. In the UK, stops would have to be close together - limiting the benefits. As Simonw says, only a tiny % of people will be anywhere near B'ham, Manchester and Leeds to use the link (unless there were more stops and lines). This reduces the use. Air travel would not be slashed in the same way. We have different patterns and city location than Spain.

And for the last time, it is the sources on this thread that imply the Heathrow Hub would be the first stop out of London. I think a branch would be better; the original plans had a branch, but it looks like the Hub is going to be the first stop.

The West facing chords would be a quick and cheap way of connecting the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) network to the airport - no-one is saying they are perfect.

Oh and finally - the gov are not going to fund a 1 billion a mile line when they scaled down the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and did it on the cheap! We have also got the Olympics which are wiping a further 10 billion out of the PM' purse (not that there is anything in there anyway!).

Of course, the Olympics will benefit everyone in this country, so is a lot more important than a HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) rail link. [/sarcasm]

[simonw]

Thanks BtLine for your response.

Another problem with the geography of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is the relative size and economy of cities. In Spain and France population and wealth is better distributed geographically than the UK.

HSL will only work where large cities link together, so

London - Birmingham - Manchester - Glasgow
London - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh
London - Bristol - Cardiff

That is it. The chances of HSL linking anywhere else are very limited, with possible exceptions of Liverpool and Sheffield. An airport link to Heathrow cannot be justified. Train links from Heathrow to London are already good, and CrossRail will further improve them.

The cost of building such high speed links does not address the current capacity problems with the network. We need longer, more frequent trains at better prices.

[Btline]

Completely agree Simonw.

If faster trains are wanted to the West - electrification, tilting trains, and 155 mph running should be implemented.

If faster trains are needed to the North, a HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) line would only just be viable. If not, modernise the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) (properly, this time - 155 mph running; more flyover junctions). Ditto to the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) (fly overs - 4 tracking etc.).

[Lee]

Ministers have approved the third runway at Heathrow, according to the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7829676.stm

The decision is set to be confirmed officially on Thursday. Alongside the commitment to a new runway, Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon is expected to announce increased investment in public transport, including a new high-speed rail link from the airport to central London.

[willc]

Surprise, surprise. Not.

Now gentlemen, explain the success of the first-ever HSL, the Japanese Shinkansen system. A dedicated high-speed network on a small, densely populated island, with cities close together. Sound familiar?

Also a system as recently visited by Lord Adonis and Iain Coucher, the chief executive of Network Rail.

HSL will only work where large cities link together, so

London - Birmingham - Manchester - Glasgow
London - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh
London - Bristol - Cardiff

Which is exactly where anyone supporting the idea says they should go and where extra capacity is needed most urgently. Greengauge's core plan actually only takes an HSL to Birmingham airport and then on to join the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) in the Trent Valley, bypassing the choked-up southern section of the route. And they envisage Heathrow as an offshoot of an HSL, served both from the north and the Continent, with direct running out of central London bypassing Heathrow, which, I agree, btline, is as it should be. The Arup scheme is pretty much focused on the airport idea, not really on an HSL heading north.

Where would all these longer trains be going? At Paddington the platform ends are already on a sharp curve, at Kings Cross you can't extend the platforms as there is only just enough room between the end of them and the tunnels to fit in the pointwork in the station throat, Marylebone is jammed into a tiny patch of land, Liverpool Street, Birmingham New Street the same, etc, etc...

We can't even find the money to extend platforms across the GW^▸ (Great Western) network to take 2+8 HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) now, due to the cost. And for double-deck trains you'd have to replace most rail bridges in this country, even on electrified lines, never mind reboring the tunnels. If you're going to spend a shedload of money, better to do it on something that looks forward and does the job properly, not another patching job on the legacy of the past.

[willc]

It's official

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7829676.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7829676.stm[/url]

What the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) doesn't mention is that Hoon also said there was a strong case for "the most heavily used parts" of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) and MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) to be electrified and a decision will be announced later this year.

[Lee]

It is mentioned in this DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) press release (link below.)
http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=389762&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False

Hoon also announced "The creation of a new company - High Speed 2 - to help consider the case for new high speed rail services between London and Scotland and tasked initially with developing a proposal for an entirely new line between London and the West Midlands which could link to Heathrow and Crossrail through a new international interchange station."

1. The formation of High Speed Two will build on Network Rail's study of options for new lines and the formation last October of the National Networks Strategy Group chaired by Andrew Adonis. Network Rail's work has pointed to a strong case for a new line from London at least to the West Midlands. This would both improve connectivity and increase capacity on the existing West Coast Main Line, which is forecast to become overcrowded by about 2025.

2. High Speed Two will be chaired on an interim basis by Sir David Rowlands. Sir David was until 2007 Permanent Secretary at the DfT. Earlier in his career at the Department he led the team which advised Ministers on the preferred route for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link and subsequently oversaw delivery of the Link on time and on budget.

3. Network Rail and DfT have been jointly examining the case for further rail electrification. This can have advantages on busy parts of the network, given the lower carbon emissions and better performance of electric trains. A decision on electrification of the most heavily used parts of the Great Western mainline from Paddington and the Midland mainline north of Bedford will be announced later this year, alongside decisions on the deployment of the new inter city express trains.

4. Further details are set out in Britain's transport infrastructure: High Speed Two which is published today. The relevant documents will be found on the DfT website: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedtwo/

[devon_metro]

Ministers have approved the third runway at Heathrow, according to the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7829676.stm

The decision is set to be confirmed officially on Thursday. Alongside the commitment to a new runway, Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon is expected to announce increased investment in public transport, including a new high-speed rail link from the airport to central London.

What a complete disaster for local residents. Heathrow should not be expanded, its big enough as it is!!

The amount of people that Heathrow actually benefits is ridiculous. There should be more expansion at regional airports, cutting down on cross country drives to get to the chaos that is Heathrow, at places such as Bristol, Exeter, Robin Hood, Leeds, Liveerpool. etc

[Btline]

I disagree dm- we should stop expansion all together.

Willc, the thing with Japan is that all the cities are in a nice line!

Any viable UK^▸ (United Kingdom) network would be a lot more complicated.

But I can see where you are coming from.

[Electric train]

Its important to understand that the expansion of Heathrow is not about serving airline passengers who want to enter the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) it is about serving transit passengers that is people who will spend an hour on UK soil before flying somewhere else, this is where BAA will make their money, the talk of improved and high speed rail links is a Government sweetener which if ever built will be 10 more years after the third runway is open

[devon_metro]

Its important to understand that the expansion of Heathrow is not about serving airline passengers who want to enter the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) it is about serving transit passengers that is people who will spend an hour on UK soil before flying somewhere else, this is where BAA will make their money, the talk of improved and high speed rail links is a Government sweetener which if ever built will be 10 more years after the third runway is open

Quite frankly the way a private company such as BAA has so much leverage over the Government is an outrage. I've travelled from Heathrow, Gatwick and Bristol in the past.

Heathrow was by far the most painfull travelling experience,
Gatwick was fairly pleasant although a 5 hour delay was a downside
Bristol, under Go and later Easyjet was both on time and very pleasant. The airport isn't hectic. Likewise airports abroad such as Orlando Intl and Palma (despite its size) were much more pleasant than Heathrow will ever be.

If Labour stays in government whenever Gordy decides his time is up, I will be flabbergasted.