Intercity Express Programme Decision Postponed

[whole diary]

[Lee]

The Department for Transport has postponed a decision on a preferred bidder for the project (link below.)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dfcd4d42-e1a2-11dd-afa0-0000779fd2ac.html

Apparently, the latest delay is a consequence of continued negotiations between the department and the two remaining bidders. Negotiations may have been complicated by the decision by the Express Rail Alliance to submit two separate bids. A higher-priced bid follows the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) specification to the letter, while a lower one uses established railway technology.

[inspector_blakey]

Again!

Does it seem to anyone else that this ridiculous ultra-lightweight, diesel-steam-coal-electric-wind-solar-hybrid-flywheel-hamster-powered, AWS^▸ (Automatic Warning System)-TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System)-ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.)-ATC^▸ (Automatic Train Control)-ATP^▸ (Automatic Train Protection)-compliant monstrosity is just never going to get built because of the massive complexity that must be involved in its design and construction? Complexity does not bode well for reliability after all: look at the laboured introductions into service that some of the recent multiple units have had, and they were incredibly simple by comparison!

Is it too much to hope that the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) could be allowed to carry on until this country's trunk routes are finally electrified? They're still some of the best passenger trains in the world and after the recent FGW^▸ (First Great Western) refurbishment (which, sticking my head above the parapet, I'm a big fan of by the way) have several years' life left in them.

[willc]

And electrification talk and the uncertainty it has created is indeed the elephant in the room here and said to be a key factor in the delay by Christian Wolmar in this week's new issue of Rail. And he adds that Lord Adonis is expected to deliver a report within a few weeks on routes most suitable for electrification.

If the talk on electrification turns into action, then it should indeed happen at just the right time to go from HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) straight to electrics, from the middle to end of next decade.

It's probably getting to the point when no-one will bid for IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) anyway - or just offer electric-only trains. Hitachi with a Class 395 derivative more suited to long-distance work and Siemens/Bombardier an ICE3 variant, like those already sold to Spain, China and Russia. Both designs which are proven to work and won't need endless prototype testing, as proposed for IEP.

[devon_metro]

I think this sums up the current government. Screw the environment. Unsustainable airports are the obvious choice!

[Tim]

...and lets make everything complicated in the process.  Why have a simple supply contract when highly paid lawyers can come up with something much more complicated

[bemmy]

I think this sums up the current government. Screw the environment. Unsustainable airports are the obvious choice!

It does seem like all the non-promises they've just announced about electrification and HSL's are just to head off criticism of the Third Runway on environmental grounds.

However, it would make sense if they are seriously considering an electrification programme and a North-South HSL, to delay the decision on IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) until those choices have been made. Hopefully then the convoluted IEP's that inspector blakey so elegantly describes will not need to even be considered.

...and lets make everything complicated in the process.  Why have a simple supply contract when highly paid lawyers can come up with something much more complicated

Maybe the same ones that worked out how to privatise the railways?

[inspector_blakey]

Well, looks like a third runway at Heathrow then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/15/bbaaviation-theairlineindustry

But there are a couple of interesting things hidden in amongst this news story: allegedly we're going to get High Speed 2 (London to Brum via Heathrow), although noone seems to be too sure who's footing the bill, and it would appear that when Adonis's electrification report comes out the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) might be included in it...

He [Geoff Hoon] announced the creation of a new company, High Speed 2, to examine the possibility of building a high-speed rail hub at Heathrow, ultimately connecting to Scotland. He said the company would report back by the end of the year on its plan, but the rail industry is sceptical that funding can be found for a project that will cost ^5bn alone to get from central London to Heathrow.

Hoon did not commit funding to the high-speed rail plan, but confirmed that an announcement on electrifying the nearby great western line, which runs from London's Paddington station to Swansea and Plymouth, was imminent.

So, looks like the farcical IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) just got even more pointless.

[Lee]

See also link below for main Heathrow discussion.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4138.msg33198#msg33198

[Lee]

...and lets make everything complicated in the process.  Why have a simple supply contract when highly paid lawyers can come up with something much more complicated

Maybe the same ones that worked out how to privatise the railways?

I'm going to suggest looking up a guy called Adrian Montague.......

....and then I'm going to leave it there 

[Btline]

Too much consoltation. Not enough doing.

[broadgage]

Hello, new member here.

Was not the original HST2 , now known as ICEP a proposal to build new long distance diesel trains as replacements for the existing HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?

It seems to be turning into an EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) with the possibility of limited diesel power/detachable diesel locomotives or power cars.

Whilst in theory electrification is a good thing, especialy considering oil depletion and likely price rises, it must be said that in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) electric railways are not reliable.
The wires will come down in windy weather, hot weather will cause them to expand and sag, cold weather will cause them to break, and in coastal areas, stormy weather will result short circuits from sea water.

Therefore what is needed, is a relativly small fleet of high speed, long distance, diesel only trains.
The design should be based on the existing HST design, incorporating the minimum of new technologly to ensure rapid building, and reliable operation.

A power car/locomotive should be provided at each end NOT a single locomotive and a cab the other end. Like the existing HST this would provide "get you home redundancy" in case of failure of one power car. To proceed at reduced performance and delay other services is far preferable to stopping entirely and blocking the line.
In order to minimise development costs, perhaps the power cars could be based on the proven class 67, useing as many standard components as possible.

The coaching stock should be a standard modern design, 12 coaches fixed formation, with a proper internal fit out for long distance use (buffet, full restaurant, luggage space, facing seats with tables etc.)

Flexible train length should be avoided, since in practice flexible =shorter (remember the plan to replace some HSTs with a 5+5 adelante in order to provide more seats? in practice of course a single adelante was used to provide fewer seats)
Tilt should be avoided since it is more to go wrong and results in a cramped interior.
Anything "world beating" or "leading edge" should be avoided as it will delay entry into service, and is more to go wrong.

If the route is eventually electrified, only the power cars would be surplus to requirements or used for some secondary purpose, the coaches could just as well be hauled electricly. A DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) would of course be rendered obsolete by electricification.

[Lee]

Welcome to the forum, broadgage

[bemmy]

Whilst in theory electrification is a good thing, especialy considering oil depletion and likely price rises, it must be said that in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) electric railways are not reliable.
The wires will come down in windy weather, hot weather will cause them to expand and sag, cold weather will cause them to break, and in coastal areas, stormy weather will result short circuits from sea water.

What a pathetic excuse not to electrify. In France, Germany and Japan, they also have stuff like weather and coastlines. People talk as if the laws of physics are different on this side of the channel, when in fact it's the laws of finance. If we would only spend enough money to do the job properly in the first place, we could have a decent railway system and save money in the long run.

[eightf48544]

Whilst in theory electrification is a good thing, especialy considering oil depletion and likely price rises, it must be said that in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) electric railways are not reliable.
The wires will come down in windy weather, hot weather will cause them to expand and sag, cold weather will cause them to break, and in coastal areas, stormy weather will result short circuits from sea water.

What a pathetic excuse not to electrify. In France, Germany and Japan, they also have stuff like weather and coastlines. People talk as if the laws of physics are different on this side of the channel, when in fact it's the laws of finance. If we would only spend enough money to do the job properly in the first place, we could have a decent railway system and save money in the long run.

You're are right electrification is not unreliable, and Other countries cope with far worse weather than we have. They have typhoons in Japan,more snow in parts of Germany and hotter weather than us down in the South in France.

It is interesting that we are hearing far less about the wires on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) now the North of London Eurostars are no longer running and it's only 91s most of the way. But it is now the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line)
with the VIP Pendolino service where the eproblem are occurring.

I wonder if it's the higher speeds with two pans rather than the single pan for which both routes were designed. Other than of course slower EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) in multiple.

French LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) lines seem to designed for 4 pans per train ie two TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) sets coupled.

[simonw]

The problem with any electrification system is the method of supplying the power.

What are the relative benefits of overhead power vs third rails? Is there another method?

Should not this country consider Hydrogen Fuel Cells to power trains. They are cheaper and more reliable than Deisel or Electric trains systems.