Is this good news

[whole diary]

[Not from Brighton]

The Hitachi info sheet certainly seems to suggest that the self powered variety will indeed have only eight passenger coaches.  I cant see how any more could be added at a later date without magically getting more power from somewhere.

Er, come to think of it, it wouldn't actually be that magical to simply add an extra cab-less power car to the formation to maintain the performance if more passenger vehicles were added.

[G.Uard]

If the wires ever do get to red soil country, I can't see them penetrating west of Exeter.  I am told that current loadings west of Newbury on the B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) are not exactly encouraging, other than at peaks and given the apparent intent to confine electrification to the M4 corridor, a long term diesel IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) option is perhaps the best the south-west can hope for, at least before 2020.

Funny that, don't think I have EVER been on a lightly loaded train towards London (and this is at Newton Abbot)

I am only repeating what was said to me by a reasonably senior railwayperson a few days ago.  However, I did live in Cornwall on my return from foreign parts and I have to say that even then, some of the off peak London trains were filled to less than bursting point.  The only contact I have with HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services on the B&H is at Westbury,  but from a casual glance, some of these look to be less than rammed.

[devon_metro]

Perhaps I can understand the Taunton/Exeter stopping Hst, which due to it's pathetic journey times is bound to be busy.

[broadgage]

The Hitachi info sheet certainly seems to suggest that the self powered variety will indeed have only eight passenger coaches.  I cant see how any more could be added at a later date without magically getting more power from somewhere.

Er, come to think of it, it wouldn't actually be that magical to simply add an extra cab-less power car to the formation to maintain the performance if more passenger vehicles were added.

I dont think that this would be viable, the proposed trains (self powered variant) consist of a driving diesel power car at each end, therefore adding additional powered vehicles would be a challenge.
One could probably add aditional trailer vehicles, but that would reduce performance.

It would therefore appear that we are going to be stuck with trains that have no more passenger vehicles than the present ones. The coaches are longer and therefore contain more seats, but the gain appears rather limited.

[broadgage]

It is begining to look as though this may not be such good news for passengers

According to Rail* the new trains will be in formations of 5 or 10 vehicles, so thats mainly 5 vehicle formations then ! With a few 10s.

No mention is made is made of different designs of power car for different train lengths, so presumably either the 5 car ones will be very overpowered or the 10 car ones  underpowered.
It does not look as though the 5 car ones will use only a single power car, since no mention is made of driving trailers.

It would also appear that they count the power cars in the number of vehicles which is a bit misleading since the diesel power cars will have no seating, and the electric ones only limited seating.
Thats like calling the present HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) 10 car trains.

Seating layout will presumably be high density bus seats, like all new trains

The inclusion of a small diesel generator in the electric trains certainly sounds like a good idea, able to run the A/C or proceed at much reduced speed when the wires come down, as they will !

And at least the diesel version will have two power cars for "get you home redundancy" like the HSTs.

* issue 612, page 6

It is now just over 2 years since I wrote the above.
There have been many changes in that time, including underfloor DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) engines instead of locomotives or power cars.
However my negative suggestion that the new fleet would consist of "mainly 5 car units with a few 10s" appears to have been unduly optimistic !
According to the current isue of RAIL the new fleet will consist mainly of 5 car multiple units, with a few 8 car units, no 10 car ones.
So not very good news if 8 car HSTs are to be downgraded to 5 car DMUS, even if these can also use electric power.
Interior layout has not yet been decided, but seems likely to follow normal DMU practice of high density bus seating, with 2 tables per vehicle, and no catering.

[paul7575]

Interior layout has not yet been decided, but seems likely to follow normal DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) practice of high density bus seating, with 2 tables per vehicle, and no catering.

There is no evidence for that; as we have just been discussing in more recent threads. 

They could just as easily fit the appropriate intercity, inter regional or commuter interior layout required by the ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender).  I notice we had this exchange 2 years ago in this thread as well...

Paul

[broadgage]

Of course the internal layout could be in proper intercity format, but the fact that the train lengths have already been reduced, does not inspire confidence.
My negative forecast re train length has proved correct, and I therefore fear a modern high density commuter layout.
No doubt a survey will be done that shows that customers prefer high density bus seats to facing seats at tables.
Cant forsee any proper meal service in a 5 car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit).

[ChrisB]

You're wrong about the train lengths too....

What does one 5car plus another 5car car equal?   Oh, yes, a 10car train!
Plus the flexibility of splitting further out from Londonm when you generally drag around at least 5cars worth of air....

So which is more useful?

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

Where would these trains be built?

[ChrisB]

Japan, and constructed in Newton-le-Willows - as per Hitachi's proposal.

[paul7575]

Geographically challenged, Chris B? 

It's Newton Aycliffe - about a hundred miles to the North East of Newton le Willows I think...

Paul

[ChrisB]

Whoops - I knew it was Newton something! Apologies!

[paul7575]

It could have been worse - at least you knew it wasn't Newton Abbot...   

Paul

[broadgage]

You're wrong about the train lengths too....

What does one 5car plus another 5car car equal?   Oh, yes, a 10car train!
Plus the flexibility of splitting further out from Londonm when you generally drag around at least 5cars worth of air....

So which is more useful?

Of course they can be coupled together, but I suspect that we will see a lot of 5 car trains replacing 8 car, which not everyone regards as an improvement.
I remember the 5 car Adelantes, that in theory were going to run as 10 car trains to increase capacity. In fact a single 5 car unit was used instead of an 8 car HST^▸ (High Speed Train).
I remember standing from Castle Cary in a 5 car Adelante to London (buses instead of trains from Taunton, numerous bus fulls of customers attempting to find seats on a new shorter train. I know of no reason why a full length train could not have been used)

The other drawback of new shorter trains is that it is seldom viable to have a proper hot buffet, and certainly not a restaurant. The provision of 2 full buffets would be excesive, and having some trains with catering and others without would be too complicated. Better to just have a trolley !

[ChrisB]

Of course they can be coupled together, but I suspect that we will see a lot of 5 car trains replacing 8 car, which not everyone regards as an improvement.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because, in normal operation, the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) wouldn't want to do this - it wants to aim for everyone in a seat. I don't know the current capacity of the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) since the new seating went in - but a 5car Adelante carries the same as a 3car 165. So a 10car 180 would carry the same as a 6car 165. How does that compare to n 8car HST these days?

I suspect that these new 5car units (did it get reported here that there are to be 5car electrics as well as bi-mode, as well as 8car electrics?) will be high capacity seating a la HST, rather than the current 180 seating.

I remember the 5 car Adelantes, that in theory were going to run as 10 car trains to increase capacity. In fact a single 5 car unit was used instead of an 8 car HST.
I remember standing from Castle Cary in a 5 car Adelante to London (buses instead of trains from Taunton, numerous bus fulls of customers attempting to find seats on a new shorter train. I know of no reason why a full length train could not have been used)

Being too long ago, who knows what the reason was - but they sure as hell didsn't do this in normal *planned* traffic.....

The other drawback of new shorter trains is that it is seldom viable to have a proper hot buffet, and certainly not a restaurant. The provision of 2 full buffets would be excesive, and having some trains with catering and others without would be too complicated. Better to just have a trolley !

Indeed, the EXpress Cafe is here to stay, sadly.