Trains leaving early

[whole diary]

[vacman]

I recently bought one of those Casio radio-synchronized watches, and I'm quite surprised at the number of trains that do depart early. It's not unusual for the 0644 from Nailsea to Bristol TempleMeads to lock its doors and start to move while its still 0642.

Next time you see the guard see if you can look at their watch.  Standard issue analogue with hands.  Accurate to a couple of minutes or so

It surprises me that radio-sync watches (which hardly cost the earth these days - ^15 each if bought in bulk?) are not issued routinely to TM^‡(resolve)'s and Drivers. All the fuss made about whistles blowing and doors locked 40-seconds from departure at staffed stations is so often ruined by a cheap Timex that is reading two minutes late strapped to the TM's wrist at the first unstaffed station stop. It can also work the other way of course with trains departing early - which is probably worse!

Wessex trains issued us with these watches! I agree that leaving early is totally unacceptable!

[John R]

Just a query are the early departures  at Nailsea booked to pick up? If they are then early departure are as Inspector Blakey posted "sloppy working".

They are normal stops. It's sloppy working. In the example that started this thread, it's simply that staff haven't (on several occasions) checked what time it was due to leave, and assume that as soon as the pax have got off and on, then it must be time to depart.

 

[Btline]

One of the great innovations Chris Green brought in when he was  head of NSE^▸ (Network South East) was every platform fitted with a synchornised digital flap clock. Solely to aid timekeeping and prevent arguments. Travelling around the old NSE I see some TOCS have removed these valuable aids to timekeeping.

At Durham station, the two "digital flap" clocks (which are still more prominent than the ones on the PISs^▸ (Passenger Information System)) are out of sync by about 20s! (one on each platform) Perhaps they want the London trains departing earlier...

The reason most of these have gone, is due to TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) putting in PISs, where I assume the clocks are linked to a central base and are all the same. (wishful thinking?)

PS: I prefer analogue on clocks - you can "see" the time, which involves less thought than reading and converting a digital 24 hour time.

[devon_metro]

I find a 24hr clock much easier to use that an analogue particularly when it comes down to accuracy. The second hand on an analogue clock doesn't necessarily change at 00.00

[Super Guard]

I have been with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) just over a year and had a digital RC watch issued.  I'm amazed that drivers & TMs^‡(resolve) still have analogue watches.

I've experienced the complete opposite this week, where the departure time on the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) is 3-4mins early compared to TRUST^▸ (Train Running System TOPS) and crew diagrams, and as a result, some guards have refused to leave until their 'diagrammed' time even though the CIS is showing otherwise.  Of course officially the train leaves RT, but it looks unprofessional to customers looking out the window at the CIS!

[devon_metro]

I have been with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) just over a year and had a digital RC watch issued.  I'm amazed that drivers & TMs^‡(resolve) still have analogue watches.

I've experienced the complete opposite this week, where the departure time on the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) is 3-4mins early compared to TRUST^▸ (Train Running System TOPS) and crew diagrams, and as a result, some guards have refused to leave until their 'diagrammed' time even though the CIS is showing otherwise.  Of course officially the train leaves RT, but it looks unprofessional to customers looking out the window at the CIS!

The "skips" have different TRUST timings than on the departure screens.

[Btline]

24 digital watches are better for despatch/guards, seeing as train times are done in this fashion and SECOND accuracy is needed.

I find analogue perfect for "to the nearest minute" needs. (and I hate the 24 hr clock, what's wrong with am/pm?)

[Oxman]

Some thoughts on dispatching trains from staffed stations:

The old NSE^▸ (Network South East) clocks are fine when they work, but are becoming increasingly problematic, which is why some have been painted over. They are very difficult and expensive to fix, so why bother when the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) is shows the correct time.

The systems that control these and the CIS clocks are both linked to the "atomic" clock, so should show the same time. However, when one system goes wrong, confusion sets in. The worse possible situation is to have two clocks showing different times. If it does happen, then platform staff usually go by the clock showing the later time, providing of course that this is not obviously completely wrong. I know from experience that platform staff are acutely aware of clocks showing different times, if only by a few seconds. The logical solution is to only have one time source.

Platform staff need digital clocks. They work to the "doors will be locked 30 seconds before" rule and will start the dispatch as the clock ticks over.

Early dispatches from staffed stations are very rare. Sometimes by accident - for example on Platforms 4 and 5 at Reading where trains are streaming through, and usually they have to be dispatched as quickly as possible, so an early arrival can catch you out. Usually though an early dispatch is the result of an instruction from Control. It happens when an on time train is being immediately followed by a late runner, so dispatch the on time train early and get the late runner in and out quickly. Most of the time its not a problem for customers, although there are situations where customers journeys are clearly disrupted. There are situations where a regulation error by a signaller might cause trains to arrive in the wrong order, so an early dispatch might be ordered to minimise the overall impact.

There are of course two timetables: the PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table) (Public) and the WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) (Working). They usually differ by at most a couple of minutes. TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) like the PTT to show clockface departures, but the WTT reflects what is actually possible. Platform staff and guards attempt to dispatch trains in accordance with the PTT, which should concur with the times showing on the CIS system.

Very occasionally there is a cock up (often at times when services are altered for engineering work), and the WTT and the PTT can be significantly different. Usual practice then is to adhere to the PTT, although this is not always possible.

My experience at unstaffed stations is that most guards (or drivers if DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))) try to stick to the PTT, although clearly this is not universally achieved.

[IndustryInsider]

My experience at unstaffed stations is that most guards (or drivers if DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))) try to stick to the PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table), although clearly this is not universally achieved.

From comments I've heard the drivers Schedule Cards increasingly now only carry the WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) times. I really don't see the need for them to show those unless they are markedly different from the PTT times. It causes confusion and delay.

[inspector_blakey]

Well, here's my two cents' worth on the issue of watches...

Analogue watches are perfectly good for telling the time accurately; in my "other" life as a guard one of the items my company's rule book requires me to have when on duty is a watch showing the correct time. I use an analogue watch (these days some are even available with second hands, what will they think of next?  ), set it by the talking clock or the time signal and can tell the time to the second! Mine is the Mondaine Swiss Railways design which is exceptionally clear and easy to read at a glance.

The idea that you can't be accurate to within more than a couple of minutes using an analogue watch is a bit silly!

I agree totally with vacman that not "waiting time" and departing early (unless this has been ordered by control for a very good reason) is sloppy working and there's no excuse for it. That's why I always tell FGW^▸ (First Great Western) when I experience it, although it doesn't seem to be taken very seriously.

[Super Guard]

I have been with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) just over a year and had a digital RC watch issued.  I'm amazed that drivers & TMs^‡(resolve) still have analogue watches.

I've experienced the complete opposite this week, where the departure time on the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) is 3-4mins early compared to TRUST^▸ (Train Running System TOPS) and crew diagrams, and as a result, some guards have refused to leave until their 'diagrammed' time even though the CIS is showing otherwise.  Of course officially the train leaves RT, but it looks unprofessional to customers looking out the window at the CIS!

The "skips" have different TRUST timings than on the departure screens.

Why do they?

("Skips"  )

[John R]

The train that caused me to start this thread left Nailsea 4 minutes early again tonight.

However, can anyone explain this? This service appears to have left Nailsea 17 minutes early and then Yatton around 27 minutes early. Although this is an arrivals board, it's showing on the departure board for Nailsea as having left 17 early as well.

The last service also has extended booked times which I'm guessing might be due to engineering work. But it all appears a bit unsatisfactory. 


LIVE ARRIVALS:
23:01 WESTON-SUPER-MARE TO TAUNTON
First Great Western
As of: Monday 6 April 2009 22:20:17
Your page will not refresh automatically, please click here for a version that will refresh

Service times are drawn from an automated system. Whilst this is the most up to date information it is subject to some potential limitations. Click here to check potential limitations.

This train is expected to arrive on platform 2.
Expected to arrive Weston-super-Mare on time.
Expected to depart Weston-super-Mare on time.


Back to Arrivals
Weston-super-Mare Station Information
Service Bulletins affecting Weston-super-Mare

STATION TIMETABLE EXPECTED ACTUAL
Bristol Temple Meads Dep21:55 _ On time
Bedminster Dep21:58 _ On time
Parson Street Dep22:05 _ 22:01
Nailsea & Backwell Dep22:26 _ 22:09
Yatton Dep22:41 _ 22:14
Worle Dep22:47 On time _
Weston Milton Dep22:55 On time _
Weston-super-Mare (Your station) Arr22:59 On time _
Dep23:01 On time _
Highbridge & Burnham Arr23:11 On time _
Bridgwater Arr23:19 On time _
Taunton Arr23:34 On time _

[inspector_blakey]

The service in question is shown in timetable book E (p. 20 in the printed version, which is p. 14 of the online version). It carries note EW: "Train is frequently affected by engineering work. Please check times before travelling".

When I put the details into the National Rail journey planner, it comes up with the following calling points and times for tomorrow night (Tue 07 Apr):

21:58  Bedminster
22:01  Parson Street
22:09  Nailsea & Backwell
22:15  Yatton
22:21  Worle
22:25  Weston Milton
22:30  Weston-super-Mare
22:41  Highbridge & Burnham
22:49  Bridgwater

So, for some reason the live departure system seems to be operating (erroneously) to the printed timetable, whilst the service itself has been running more or less as booked in the rail journey information system, or whatever it's called these days.

As an aside, the last service between BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) and EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) (2145 off PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains), 2335 off BRI) would be entirely within its rights to leave early, as all intermediate stations on this leg of the journey are note "s": set down only.

[super tm]

I see your point but the actual departure times are the ones which show in the published timetable.

I am guessing that there was some engineering work planned and then cancelled and the wrong times were left in the live departure board system.

It is not a very reliable system.  Last year for example on boxing day it was showing trains for Reading and that they were on time.

[devon_metro]

It often also fails to report. Torquay doesn't report for example.