FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

NR^» (Network Rail - home page) CofC actually refers to first class accomodation being unavailable:

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

It may be that 'full and standing' is not the same as 'unavailable', however perhaps TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) treat it the same anyway...

Paul

I seem to recall I've made this mistake before... You are of course, right. However I have normally received a refund in the event that I had to sit in Standard with a First ticket.

[devon_metro]

The First Class 'guarantee' of a seat already only applies to HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s and not Turbos. 
As someone who can't decode the different carriage types described above, are HST provisions being reduced or only Turbo's?

As someone who pays the extra for First Class specifically and only to get a seat I can tell you that I would be cancelling my upgrade faster than you can rip out a buffet car.

Only Turbos are having a small section of First Class removed for now but rumours suggest that HSTs will also have one carriage converted to Standard Class as part of the new franchise deal

Can't see that being popular, considering many of the peak services are fairly full in 1st as it is!

[Timmer]

I take it the 'rumours' regarding reducing first class on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to one carriage is what's been said that I have seen on other rail based forums?

Can't see it happening. First class on Intercity services brings in a great deal of revenue for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that one carriage would be nowhere near enough on many peak services where the full fare is being paid. Sure during off peak first class isn't as busy (except on services to the SW) but then again neither is standard class. I expect further conversions of buffet cars to standard seating would be the order of the day either half a carriage or full conversion to a standard coach with mirco buffet.

[John R]

Complete removal of the full buffets would be the end of the Pullman and Travelling Chef services,( though given the lack of buffets on IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) that seems on the cards anyway for Bristol/South Wales services). I would have thought the cheapest option would be to turn them around and replace the 1st with standard seating. Is there any technical reason why this would be difficult?

[Timmer]

I would have thought the cheapest option would be to turn them around and replace the 1st with standard seating. Is there any technical reason why this would be difficult?

None at all and I expect that will be the way they will go as it's by far the easiest and cheapest option so you end up with sets with 6 standard class coaches as now with the rest (with maybe a handful kept back for Pullman diagrams) with 5 1/2 standard class coaches.

[Southern Stag]

The rumours are from other rail forums, but from posters I'd trust. The plan is apparently to increase all sets to 6 Standard Class carriages by converting one First Class carriage in each set with a full buffet to Standard Class. This is apparently at the insistence of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

[SandTEngineer]

I'm a bit puzzled.  Are you suggesting that G becomes F (all standard Class) and F becomes G (Part Buffet, part First Class as now)?

[Southern Stag]

Yes, that is the rumour I've heard, so sets with full buffets would have 6 Standard and 1.5 First Class carriages.

[Timmer]

Really would either bring to an end or significantly reduce the number of good value Advance tickets available in First class unless the single First class carriage was re-configured say to a similar layout of a 444 SWT^▸ (South West Trains) EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) to increase capacity which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as I find First class on a 444 more than acceptable.

You say 1.5, but being bit pedantic it's more like 1.3 or 1.4 so unless the buffet/kitchen/office areas are significantly reduced, that is quite a reduction in the number of seats available. Expect a backlash with First Group once again getting the blame for yet another one of Daft's decrees.

Micro managing of franchises by Daft is still alive and well.

So if you are travelling first class in future you are better off if a current HD set with 6 standard carriages turning up as these will be the only sets with two first class carriages.

[ChrisB]

See my post in the 'new franchise' thread.

HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) *are* losing 1st class seats - the full-buffet sets are having one 1st class coach declassified & the 'Express Cafe' sets are losing half a coach (they already have more Standard seats) with a divider mid-coach.

The Cotswold Line Sundays 1st class comment above - most likely that the vast majority are travelling Weekend First - knowing full well that they're very unlikely to pay the upgrade in a turbo....

[Timmer]

Thanks for the update Chris. Oh well I guess 1.5 is better than 1 First class carriage but I can see problems ahead with overcrowding on many peak services where passengers pay the most. But hey what do Daft care. They don't have to deal with all the complaints. Also gives passengers used to less First class accommodation when IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) comes into service.

[Southern Stag]

I actually this is an overall positive move. An extra standard class carriage on the full buffet sets is going to make a huge difference on the busy Plymouth/Penzance trains, especially in the summer.

[Timmer]

I actually this is an overall positive move. An extra standard class carriage on the full buffet sets is going to make a huge difference on the busy Plymouth/Penzance trains, especially in the summer.

To a point yes it will, but because there is less First class accomodation, there will be less cheaper First class Advance fares meaning those who travelled First class on cheaper Advance tickets will now travel Standard. If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't get the allocation and pricing right of First class Advance tickets you could end up with empty First class seats and Standard almost as busy as before because travelling First class will become too expensive for many.

Whatever happens I think the days of great value First class Advance fares are probably going or that the allocation will be very small with the Advance ticket pricing for most services rising more quickly and sharply as the few cheaper First class Advance fares that are available sell out as there won't be so many as there are less seats to fill.

[ChrisB]

I suspect that 1st Class Advances might disappear all together until works are complete & FGW^▸ (First Great Western) see how many empty seats in that class they generally have to fill.

At weekends, they may simply rely on Weekend First to fill these. On weekdays, there won't be many, especially in the peaks. The very quiet middle of the day trains may be excepted. As would the last trains I suspect...

[Timmer]

Regards Weekend First, they may even stop you being able to upgrade Standard Advance tickets to First leaving just off peak, super off peak and Anytime tickets that can be upgraded to Weekend First.