FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

The coach behind the micro-buffet (currently 1st class) will be split with a divider half STD, half 1st.

Not yet sure which full 1st Class coach will be completely converted in full buffet sets.

[John R]

I also think 3 full coaches of first class is too much

But there are no FGW^▸ (First Great Western) sets running around with 3 coaches.

[thetrout]

There are indeed sets running around with different sized Buffet Cars.

Smaller Kitchen Buffets are not used for Pullman Restaurants and avoided for Travelling Chef's I understand. With TC^‡(resolve)'s a smaller kitchen cannot offer a full menu.

The 3 & 4 Windows is correct in terms of working out which is which. BNM is also right in than some TSB's have been converted into was is now a TRFB^▸ (Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)). These are identified by the painted window panel which was a window as has been said.

There is also a semi refurbished buffet car running around which has the old style Buffet Design but the seats are the Leather First Class ones and the Buffet has received an internal coat of paint. I have a picture somewhere.

So in answer to the questions. Both types of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Buffet are still very much on the Western Region / GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line).

[thetrout]

So the IC225s should be formed like the GW^▸ (Great Western) IC125s currently are (ie. 2x FO, 1x FirstClassBuffet, 6xTSO)

No disrespect, But I take it you've never seen First Class on a Busy IC225? There are plenty of seats taken in First Class on most of the East Coast Services I have used. I recall one service where I struggled to find a seat and ended up finding a seat right down next to the DVT^‡(resolve) (Driving Van Trailer) in the ex smoking compartment.

It was very fortunate the passenger accepted my request of the aisle seat or I would have been Standing or sitting on the floor from YRK - KGX (York - London Kings Cross)

[JayMac]

I also think 3 full coaches of first class is too much

But there are no FGW^▸ (First Great Western) sets running around with 3 coaches.

In that instance I think Rhydgaled was referring to East Coast's IC225 (Class 91 and Mk4) sets when mentioning 3 full coaches of 1st Class.


I have been told that the make-up of FGW HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets after the changes will be:

Sets with a full buffet:
[London end] Class 43 - TF - TRFB^▸ (Trailer Restaurant First Buffet (Mark 3 coach type)) - TS - TS - TS - TSD - TS - TSG - Class 43 [Country end]

Sets with a micro buffet:
[London End] Class 43 - TF - TC^‡(resolve) - TSMB - TS - TS - TSD - TS - TSG - Class 43 [Country end]

TF = Trailer First
TC = Trailer Composite (half 1st Class, half Standard)*
TRFB = Trailer Restaurant First Buffet
TSMB = Trailer Standard Micro Buffet
TSD = Trailer Standard Disabled
TS = Trailer Standard
TSG = Trailer Standard Guard

* The Trailer Composite will have the 1st Class disabled space.

This information came from a FGW employee who wishes to remain anonymous, and it is subject to change.

[NickB]

Putting the catering aside for a moment, does anyone know what will happen in the case of First class ticket holders who can't get a seat (on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train))
Are fgw going to amend their ToC's? I ask because on my trains First is pretty much at capacity as it is and if the formation changes there will be people standing everyday.

[Timmer]

Putting the catering aside for a moment, does anyone know what will happen in the case of First class ticket holders who can't get a seat (on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train))
Are fgw going to amend their ToC's? I ask because on my trains First is pretty much at capacity as it is and if the formation changes there will be people standing everyday.

Can only think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will try and dampen demand for 1st class by raising fares and reducing the amount of 1st Advance fares available. Even doing this I still think there will be trouble for FGW with some of their customers who pay big money to travel in 1st during the peaks having something to say about these upcoming capacity changes when they are implemented.

[NickB]

Well any commuter worth their salt will buy their annual ticket on 31st Dec or before, which means we know 'next years' rate already. That means fgw have at least a year before they can dissuade people from spending money with them by providing a crapper service. Each time I stand that is ^40. So if I stand for 100 mornings, or 40% of my journeys, I get my entire season ticket value back in refunds.
Suits me, but has anyone in control done the maths? 

[Timmer]

Well any commuter worth their salt will buy their annual ticket on 31st Dec or before, which means we know 'next years' rate already. That means fgw have at least a year before they can dissuade people from spending money with them by providing a crapper service. Each time I stand that is ^40. So if I stand for 100 mornings, or 40% of my journeys, I get my entire season ticket value back in refunds.
Suits me, but has anyone in control done the maths? 

Probably best ask DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) that question as this bears all the hallmarks of their doing. They get the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to do their dirty work for them and take the blame which of course the TOCs couldn't care less about as their complaints departments handles all the flack. Probably have the standard reply letters all ready typed up for when the lack of 1st class seating complaints come rolling in.

[John R]

Probably have the standard reply letters all ready typed up for when the lack of 1st class seating complaints come rolling in.

Surely they'll need first reply letters, not standard reply letters.

[thetrout]

Interesting...

Just a thought here. Are FGW^▸ (First Great Western) going to reinstall the toilet in the power car end of Coach H on Full Buffet Sets? Maybe add a further toilet in Coach F?

Otherwise that will mean just 1 toilet in First Class on Full Buffet Sets... That will not go down well IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion). Well certainly not with me anyway

So a Full Buffet Set with a Pullman/Travelling Chef has less toilets than a Microwave Cheese Burger offering from a Micro Buffet...?!?! Because that is clearly very sensible...!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Probably have the standard reply letters all ready typed up for when the lack of 1st class seating complaints come rolling in.

Surely they'll need first reply letters, not standard reply letters.

 

[NickB]

Putting the catering aside for a moment, does anyone know what will happen in the case of First class ticket holders who can't get a seat (on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train))
Are fgw going to amend their ToC's? I ask because on my trains First is pretty much at capacity as it is and if the formation changes there will be people standing everyday.

Reading the thread in Your Rights and Redress on the new Passengers Charter the answer to my questions lie therein.  In short, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have watered down rights for first class passengers and we get less comp for having to stand.
Think this is going to cost FGW.

Also all mention of Quiet Carriages has been removed.  Ho hum.

[Timmer]

It would appear that this is a growing issue so expect to see more 1st class seating disappear across the network:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/10375031/Scrap-first-class-to-give-more-train-passengers-a-seat.html

Train companies could be told to replace first-class compartments with more standard seating to ease overcrowding, after a survey suggested many premium areas remain half-empty even in rush hours.

The study monitored services arriving at main-line London stations and found that on many trains passengers had to stand in standard class while only a handful of seats were occupied in first class.

On average, The Telegraph^s research found only 50 per cent of first-class seats were occupied, suggesting the supply far outstrips demand.

Patrick McLoughlin, the Transport Secretary, said he was ^looking into^ the mix of first class and standard class after the findings were presented to him. He agreed that there might be ways of ^delivering a better passenger experience^ by increasing the ratio of standard-class carriages.

The independent rail watchdog also said the figures showed the right balance was ^not being achieved^. Continues...

[JayMac]

The issue of 1st Class provision was being discussed this morning on BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Breakfast from 0820 (watchable on BBC1 iPlayer online until 1019 by rewinding up to 2 hours).

Transport journalist Christian Wolmar and David Sidebottom from Passenger Focus were both advocating a shift in the balance between 1st Class and Standard. Wolmar, unsurprisingly, going for the egalitarian approach of removing 1st Class entirely, with Sidebottom saying that train companies should better manage the balance to reflect customer demand.

Getting the balance right is the crucial question. Operators will no doubt be watching FGW^▸ (First Great Western) closely to see if the changes to the Turbos and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) have/will have struck the right balance.