FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[Timmer]

Is it just me or are others getting fed up with this rubbish that first class is always empty with standard full and standing? You normally find when standard is full so is first class. To me it just seems like a bit of jealousy on some peoples part yet if you book in advance you can get great value first class tickets that are often cheaper than standard walk on fares.

I agree there is definitely a need for more capacity on trains with IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) still along way away but why take it out on those who have chosen to spend a bit extra to travel in first?

[ChrisB]

Jealousy

[Timmer]

Jealousy

Indeed, but should that really be dictating policy about the capacity ratio of first v standard on trains?

[TaplowGreen]

I recently got a PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) which had only 2 First class carriages, mid morning Sunday so not normally very busy but this one was and there were some very unhappy First class passengers left without a seat - First class was full by Exeter.

I think this is a backwards move which reduces customer choice and will upset business travellers at exactly the time when they are being encouraged to get off the roads and onto trains.

[John R]

Is it just me or are others getting fed up with this rubbish that first class is always empty with standard full and standing? You normally find when standard is full so is first class. To me it just seems like a bit of jealousy on some peoples part yet if you book in advance you can get great value first class tickets that are often cheaper than standard walk on fares.

I agree there is definitely a need for more capacity on trains with IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) still along way away but why take it out on those who have chosen to spend a bit extra to travel in first?

I would agree with you. The proposal as previously discussed will reduce first seating to around 70 seats in the sets with full buffets. That is going to result in people standing in first on occasions, and maybe regularly on certain peak time workings. I've certainly seen peak evening services leave Swindon westwards that would be standing only - one can only assume that it would be worse between Paddington and Swindon. 

[trainer]

For me, FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s introduction of high density seating in Standard Class was the point at which I decided that if there wasn't a cheap First Class option (SWT^▸ (South West Trains) is an option sometimes), I would seriously think about individually tailored door-to-door transport with guaranteed window seat and convenient departure time, comfortable seating with sufficient leg room, but with a travel time penalty and inconvenience if London was the destination. If I didn't fancy driving, then the coach would be a seriously considered option.  For many years I have happily travelled Standard/Second Class, but the claustrophobic feelings have increased as we have been squeezed into smaller and smaller spaces for two or more hours.

There comes a point where train travel in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) will become just a necessary evil (for some I suspect it already has) and much as one clings on to romantic notions of leaning back looking at the passing countryside, the reality is something else.  To pay First Class fares for what would have been regarded as decent Second Class conditions in days gone by would be quite wrong.  (On the other hand, ^20.00 for First Class Bristol-Falmouth, which I paid a couple of years ago - pre Senior Rail Card - I thought was the reverse.)  I know the economic arguments, but for those with a choice, each deterioration of the quality of the experience adds a reason for not using the train.

I remain keen on public transport, but some won't even bother after one bad experience.

[JayMac]

... each deterioration of the quality of the experience adds a reason for not using the train.

I remain keen on public transport, but some won't even bother after one bad experience.

And yet, year on year the railways are carrying more and more people. In less comfort? Perhaps, but that is subjective. And they keep coming back for more.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) Standard Class, post refurb, have the same seat width, and legroom is no worse, compared to the original layout.

[trainer]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) Standard Class, post refurb, have the same seat width, and legroom is no worse, compared to the original layout.

I understand that the leg room is the same as before, but (and I admit that this is very subjective) the height of the seat backs (H&S^▸ (Health and Safety), I know) and the hit-or-miss chance of having a reasonable view out of a window gives me an uncomfortable, confined feeling.  I recognise that for the many who stick their face in front of a screen/book/paper it matters not what passes by outside and you are right, increasing numbers are piling on to trains, so perhaps it's just me and we'll have to learn to live with it or not use the train.  Fortunately, I can choose to travel off peak much of the time, so that mitigates things  a lot.

[Southern Stag]

As I remember it the seat to window alignment wasn't perfect pre-refurbishment either. It's pretty difficult to have have a perfect alignment when you have the numbers of seats that are in the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train). They're still a lot better than Voyagers.

[Chris from Nailsea]

... wasn't this already discussed at length back in October?

... perhaps these posts could be moved to the main 'First Class' thread now?

Paul

A fair point, Paul: I've therefore merged both topics into this ongoing discussion of the whole subject here.

CfN 

[ChrisB]

I recently got a PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) which had only 2 First class carriages, mid morning Sunday so not normally very busy but this one was and there were some very unhappy First class passengers left without a seat - First class was full by Exeter.

Likely, perversely, to be more of a problem at weekends, where many upgrade to Weekend First, thus leaving those that have bought 1st Class struggling to get a 1st seat if joining in Devon. Suspect the demise of Weekend First once this shrinking exercise is complete - just relying on getting the 1st class Advance quota right....

[Umberleigh]

I enjoy travelling First Class and actively avoid trains without it other than the branch lines. If I can't get a seat in future I will drive, simple as. If I'm travelling to London then I will park at Heathrow and get the Express in.

I can only foresee problems if this policy is introduced; as others have already pointed out, there are many services that easily fill 2.5 FC^‡(resolve) carriages. Also, what is the average capacity of Standard Class if late evening services are included? I'm guessing it's not 100%.

Whilst I have every sympathy with passengers who have to stand, at the end of the day seat reservations are free and available up to two hours before departure. Seriously, are there that many people who arrive into work in, say, Plymouth are are told they need to be on the very next train to London? I worked for an organisation in the Westcountry that frequently sent employees to London and Bristol, but never on the spur of the moment.

I get to speak to a lot of users of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services who aren't in anyway railway buffs, and they all seem to take advantage of advance First Class fares whenever possible. I've also known of people travelling on business who were discretely upgraded to First on Virgin trains that were very busy (in the days before Cross Country ruined the service), so why not FGW?

[TaplowGreen]

As Chris B says this must herald the end of Weekend First, and yes Advance fares can be v good value in First class, I normally go London - Plymouth every 6 weeks or so and often get change from ^40.

[Btline]

Is this ludicrous policy actually going to happen?
Yes, get rid of "1st" class in the Thames Turbos (it is only 2nd class standard seating anyway) and do what Chiltern did.

But no-one is going to buy a 1st class season ticket from Bristol Parkway to London if they are constantly going to have to stand. No commuter at Westbury will bother to buy a 1st ticket if the packed SW service arrives with no seats left.

If First Class is too empty, do what East Coast have done. Lower the fares and offer a decent level of service (inc food and drink). It's not rocket science.

[Timmer]

But no-one is going to buy a 1st class season ticket from Bristol Parkway to London if they are constantly going to have to stand. No commuter at Westbury will bother to buy a 1st ticket if the packed SW service arrives with no seats left.

You are right that it's the South Wales and South West services that overcrowding in First class could occur unless FGW^▸ (First Great Western) reduce the amount first advance fares made available. You could reduce First class on Bristol to London services but even some of these services are very busy at peak times.

The other problem is current diagrams can have a Bristol to London service then working London to the South West. So the question is will FGW reduce First class across every set or just some sets diagramming them on services where demand for First class isn't so high?