FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

Lest we forget, almost every carriage running hereabouts says "First" on it, and of course people who are new to the train service and / or speak little English are going to find it confusing.    If it's just "First" in words, it's OK on your standard ticket. If it's "1st" with numbers too, then you can't use it. Simples.

My emphasis in Bold... Someone tell South West Trains about this please...



Southern Stag I agree on the 377/6 Southern Trains units. Incidentally these units also convey the largest amount of First Class seating other than Class 442s (Which is kinda obvious what is First Class is on those units!)

I think the units that win the prize however are the GreaterAnglia Class 360 Units. Very little information especially if the compartment door is locked open

I think it is unreasonable to expect reading commuters or any other TV stations with a fast service to paddington to use the local stopping services. what would ypu do if you were in the same boat?

Well me personally would use a stopping service if I meant that I got a seat in the class of travel for which I have paid. As a regular First Class passenger (sorry) I often aim for trains that no-one else wants because either: They call everywhere. Take a cavorted route (London - York direct via Sheffield springs to mind ) or travel at times no-one else wants to (Very early AM or very early PM)

You may wish to discount my opinion however because I am not your usual 9-5 working commuter. I also have very unique travel preferences.


As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.


With regards to the mothballed Mk3 Carriages FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have been trying to source. There is so much Mk2^▸ (Mark 2 coach) lying around the country doing nothing. Yes these carriages are in excess of 40 years old maybe. But we have them. Maybe the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) should be lobbying to make the best of a bad situation?! Just a thought...

Of course anyone complaining about the prices of a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington should be buying their season tickets from Overton

[johoare]

I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have.  And FGW^▸ (First Great Western) pay compensation every time it happens.

And I have seen it too.. More than once.. And one time it happened there was also a ticket check and they really were ALL first class customers on that occasion.

[IndustryInsider]

I've seen first class full on the odd occasion too, but i see standard class full many times every day.  What should be the priority?

Dusting off the blueprints and building sime new Mk III's would be a lovely idea if the design would pass currenty safety and accessibility regulations.  Sadly they'd fail for numerous reasons.

[Southern Stag]

As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.

The problem, as stated by IndustryInsider above is that the stopping services are actually busier than the fast services. HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) between Paddington and Reading are busy, but the stopping services at Ealing Broadway are crush loaded.

[TaplowGreen]

As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.

The problem, as stated by IndustryInsider above is that the stopping services are actually busier than the fast services. HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) between Paddington and Reading are busy, but the stopping services at Ealing Broadway are crush loaded.

I agree re: stopping services at Ealing B, it used to be my commuting route and was always busy in the evenings but tried it recently and it was absolutely horrific to the point of being dangerous in terms of numbers on platform/trying to board trains - which begs the question, it's all very well providing extra capacity on long distance/HST routes, but what's being done about the local services? Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not addressing this.

[ellendune]

Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

[TaplowGreen]

Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity? 

[chrisr_75]

Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity? 

Agree with TG, what I see as a major failing in this franchise has been the inability to predict passenger numbers accurately and/or unwillingness to act accordingly to provide sufficient capacity and lobbying government to assist in providing this. But then, why would first group care? Did they not want to hand the keys back and walk away just a short while ago?

[IndustryInsider]

I agree with TaplowGreen in principle as well.  But there is no suitable diesel stock around.  ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about)'s are unprepared to finance such new stock given the electrification programme.  FirstGroup are, quite rightly, unwilling to invest in new stock with their short term pseudo-franchise.  Major investment in new electric trains is just round the corner - local suburban trains could/should be in the hands of electric traction within three years. 

All reasonable/sensible measures were taken by hiring in the two units that were available (Class 150s) for the Basingstoke route and bringing back the 5 Class 180s which released several Turbos that strengthened a lot of the morning local trains (allowing roughly an extra 1000 seats on both the morning and evening local services).  The recent initiative of removing some of the First Class on the 166s has, as we always knew, made no difference, but I would argue that on the majority of trains the crowding has eased slightly on where it was back in early 2012 before the above measures took hold - despite being at critical levels on many trains still.

There will be no excuse for not providing adequate space come the arrival of the new electric trains and Crossrail.  I say adequate space because it is unrealistic to expect everybody to have a seat on the local journeys at all times, but it is unacceptable for this investment to arrive and trains to still be running around with crush loadings.  I will be disappointed if they are.

[SandTEngineer]

Well I'm currently sat in Coach G (sorry Coach L) on a Westcountry bound train and the conductor has just announced that there is no longer a quite coach in First Class to the joy of having then to suffer umpteen loud ringing mobile telephones   Think I'm going to decamp to Coach A

.........and after speaking to the conductor he informed me that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) was at the receiving end of a bit of a backlash from regular First Class passengers concerning the First Class changes.

[ellendune]

Thank you II for your well balanced reply.

It is easy to forget that what FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can do is controlled by DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) , through the franchise conditions, the rail privatisation arrangements and wider rail policy.

FGW can only sign a lease for the remainder of their very short franchise unless the government becomes a party to the contract. Almost all the risk is therefore on the leasing company.

A leasing company would normally work out its costs on something like a 30 year life for a train. Wider rail policy of rail electrification means that there will be a glut of diesel trains on the market in a few years. To recover their costs of buying a new train from the train operators over the short estimated life they would have, would make the leasing price unaffordable to the train operators.

If FGW order new trains today they would not be here before the new IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) & cross rail trains that are on order and the local electric trains that might be on order or be cascaded or about to be ordered, if only DfT would tell us where they are coming from (FGW cannot order these as the franchise contract does not allow them to).  

Even if new diesel trains were available at the normal rates often the additional revenue would not be sufficient to cover the additional leasing costs. FGW would therefore look to DfT to adjust the franchise terms to cover these additional costs. If they had built this into their franchise bid then DfT would probably gone elsewhere because other would not have included it as it was not a specified requirement.

Now if DfT had let a contract that stipulated that the train operators had to provide enough trains to avoid overcrowding at its risk they would have all priced it.  This would either have had to be a long term contract (like Chiltern's) or DfT would have to guarantee that the new stock would be designated franchise assets so the lasing company could price them realistically.  

Remember that the leasing companies are private businesses, they cannot make a loss eventually go bust.  If they do not make a certain profit their investors will go elsewhere.

[ChrisB]

As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.

I suggested this further back up the thread - although the excess would be more than a fiver, I suspect....Crossrail would be the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) offering such a fare....

Possibly also, HSS Reading shuttles every, say 15 mins in the peak, stopping at Reading and, possibly one of the other inner TV stations (Maidenhead for example - to cover off those HSS stops currently) - then keeping them off trains to the West Country by making them non-stop / pick-up only?

With the extra paths & higher acceleration this would be possible.

[chrisr_75]

Well I'm currently sat in Coach G (sorry Coach L) on a Westcountry bound train and the conductor has just announced that there is no longer a quite coach in First Class to the joy of having then to suffer umpteen loud ringing mobile telephones   Think I'm going to decamp to Coach A

.........and after speaking to the conductor he informed me that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) was at the receiving end of a bit of a backlash from regular First Class passengers concerning the First Class changes.

If it is of any interest I made exactly that move recently, my Monday morning journey was quieter than I ever experienced in first, I'm currently in the process of completing my journey pattern but in coach A rather than G. So far it's been ok. I've also noted a few other former first class regulars doing the same thing...

Interesting, but not a massive surprise that FGW are experiencing a backlash. Did the train manager suggest what form this backlash was taking? Complaints to management or more people just voting with their feet?

[ChrisB]

I've had the layouts confirmed.....

The micro-buffets will have Standard seating either side of it, with the 1st class being the 1.5 coaches nearest the PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) buffers.

On the other sets, the full size buffet coach will be moved to sit second coach from the buffers, oriented that it's 1st class seating buts onto to the coach nearest the buffers with full 1st seating. The coach being converted to Standard then being the third coach from the buffers.

[grahame]

but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity? 

But then, why would first group care? Did they not want to hand the keys back and walk away just a short while ago?

Hmmm ... it's incumbent on the service provider to meet the requirements of their contract, which may be to provide a certain level of services and may include targets relating to handling passenger numbers in some way (but it may not).  Second requirement - being a commercial company - is to make a profit.  Where there's a major flow of passengers, the company may choose to provide services to cope (Glastonbury), or not to (some late night events at the Millennium Stadium).

I'm not convinced that First wanted to walk away at any point.   More likely they wanted to (and did) hand back the keys so that they could be given the keys again after they had been made better.