FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[grahame]

And hopefully you'll be making those views in your response to the Greater Western franchise consultation that's currently running, ...

Sorry to hijack your suggestion ...

Question for those who have already input to the consultation.  Are you getting any form of acknowledgement of your email to confirm it's got through?

[ChrisB]

You won't receive a personal response (constructive or otherwise)

[bobm]

I think what grahame was asking, indeed what I was thinking, was whether you get any acknowledgement that a submission has been actually received rather than any verdict on the contents.

[ChrisB]

Don't know - but I suspect only a Standard acknowledgement of receipt response from the email address you submit your input to.

I doubt you get an acknowledgement in writing if you mail in. But I'm happy to learn otherwise.

[grahame]

I think what grahame was asking, indeed what I was thinking, was whether you get any acknowledgement that a submission has been actually received rather than any verdict on the contents.

Correct - just an automated "Your input has reached the consultation email box" response ^

Don't know - but I suspect only a Standard acknowledgement of receipt response from the email address you submit your input to.

Yes - that's what I would like.  But I submitted the Chamber of Commerce response and have nothing to tell me it's reached them.   You all know how bad I am at smelling, and I'm worked that I may have got the email address wrong

[ChrisB]

Really...how difficult is it to set upba standard 'thanks for your submission' auto-reply?!!

[Super Guard]

Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity? 

So given you know there is a national shortage of rolling stock and you no doubt understand the short-term nature there is with the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise, if you were in charge of FGW when the new contract came into force last year, what would you have done differently with regards to obtaining extra rolling stock to provide the sufficient level of capacity you mention, given IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and Crossrail are in the offing and the previously mentioned shortage of stock...?

..........you will I hope forgive the perceived heresy against the infallible deity that is FGW in the opinion of some on here, and you will I hope have noted the irony in my original post....however as someone who, along with millions of others has over the years spent a fair chunk of my salary on some of the highest rail fares in the World and in return spent a fair chunk of my time in conditions of overcrowding which if I were a cow or horse would be illegal, I don't think it's unreasonable of me to expect some tangible effort at a meaningful solution from the organisation receiving said monies, without having to devise the solutions myself?

I agree it is not your problem to solve, I just thought you may have a suggestion, as you appear to think FGW are not doing enough, even with the well reported national rolling stock constraints, and brand new rolling stock on the horizon.

[ellendune]

Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity? 

So given you know there is a national shortage of rolling stock and you no doubt understand the short-term nature there is with the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise, if you were in charge of FGW when the new contract came into force last year, what would you have done differently with regards to obtaining extra rolling stock to provide the sufficient level of capacity you mention, given IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) and Crossrail are in the offing and the previously mentioned shortage of stock...?

..........you will I hope forgive the perceived heresy against the infallible deity that is FGW in the opinion of some on here, and you will I hope have noted the irony in my original post....however as someone who, along with millions of others has over the years spent a fair chunk of my salary on some of the highest rail fares in the World and in return spent a fair chunk of my time in conditions of overcrowding which if I were a cow or horse would be illegal, I don't think it's unreasonable of me to expect some tangible effort at a meaningful solution from the organisation receiving said monies, without having to devise the solutions myself?

You must remember that the relationship between DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and FGW is such that you could equally have said that DfT have been receiving said monies.  Since they have put FGW in the impossible position it is they, I think, that have to come up with a solution. Of course that solution might be to give FGW or their successors the responsibility and the freedom to solve the problem.  However, that is only likely to be possible with a long franchise so not this time.   

[a-driver]

People forget that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are the only TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) who bought some trains outright from under the nose of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) (or whatever name they went with at the time).  8 full HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) were purchased and for this they incurred a warning from the DfT.  This clearly shows who runs the railways of this country when a company is reprimanded for using its own initiative to increase capacity. 
The purchase of these HSTs clearly demonstrates FGW clearly new and anticipated either the growth of the franchise or were aware st the time the current rolling stock levels were not sufficient.
Those 8 HSTs would have probably have been allocated to another TOC.  Where do you think Great Western would be without 8 fewer HSTs on the books because we know there is currently nothing else out there that would have replaced them.

First are trying their best to source new rolling stock.  Again demonstrated by the 2x 150 and 180s right towards the end of the franchise, this is a huge commitment with such a short time left on the franchise.  Both the 150s and 180s are hugely expensive to run, either due to the small size of the fleet and/or there unreliability. 
The number of maintenance staff employed to keep the 180s serviceable is staggering.
They are still acquiring MkIII trailers and having them converted to standard class carriages despite the uncertain future of the franchise. 
FGW, without receiving taxpayer funded new trains, have probably increased the size of its fleet more than any other operator in the country.

People protest that the railway should be renationalised.  The government virtually control it now and look how well they are doing.  The problem is simple.  There is too much government interference which heavily restricts what a TOC can do to grow and improve it's service.  Most TOCs will tell you they do not have enough resources.  When diesel trains become available for lease you've got a handful of TOCs chasing for them.
The whole FGW fleet is stretched to breaking point, during the peak periods there is often nothing spare. Yes the trains they may look uncared for to the public with heating, air con, toilet issues but at the end of the day maintenance staff have just about enough time to complete all safety related work in a few hours overnight.  Sometimes there isn't enough time and you end up having trains late off the depot in the morning.  It's not because the driver has overslept, it's because the trains are still being worked on.  Unfortunately, "cosmetic" repairs take a back seat to getting the train back out in service. 

Passengers need to stop bashing TOCs and start hitting the DfT, especially now with the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) project.  What happens in the next few years will probably shape the future of the franchise for the next 15 years.

[broadgage]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have certainly done better than some other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) and the outright purchase of some HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) in order to increase capacity is most commendable. For these reasons I hope that they retain the franchise, they have their faults but are still better IMO^▸ (in my opinion) than the likely alternatives.

Will the new trains in fact provide much extra capacity ? or is it simply a case of "jam tomorrow" ?
I have seen a number of cases when the introduction of new trains has actually REDUCED capacity.

I predict that existing rolling stock will suddenly become "obsolete" or "non compliant" or even "dangerous" on the day that the new trains are introduced.
I remember the introduction of the new networker EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), with much fanfare about increased capacity etc. In fact 6 car networkers replaced 8 car slam door units on the Catford loop line and elsewhere with a consequent increase in standing and overcrowding. No question of retaining the old units on one line or route since they became "dangerous" as soon as networker deliveries started.

I also remember the class 159s replacing loco hauled trains on Waterloo to Salisbury services again with much fanfare about the huge improvements. In fact train lengths were reduced from 8 car to 3 car, buffets abolished, first class accomadation much reduced, and cycles carried only with advance booking. No question of course of keeping some full length loco hauled trains for busy services, the whole lot became "obsolete" once a few 159s were delivered.

More recently of course we saw 4 or 5 car voyagers replacing HSTs and loco hauled trains on cross country services, with standing becoming the norm on services that previously had seats for all.

No doubt we will be assured that it will be different this time, but previous events do not fill me with optimism.
As soon as a few IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) are available I expect that HSTs will suddenly become "non compliant" and have to be scrapped. Other slightly newer stock will no doubt be needed elsewhere.
And a cynic like me expects poor reliability/availability from the new trains for at least a few years.

And remember that most of the new trains are shorter than those they are to replace.

[JayMac]

I remember the introduction of the new networker EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), with much fanfare about increased capacity etc. In fact 6 car networkers replaced 8 car slam door units on the Catford loop line and elsewhere with a consequent increase in standing and overcrowding. No question of retaining the old units on one line or route since they became "dangerous" as soon as networker deliveries started.

I think the accidents at Clapham Junction, Cannon Street, Purley, and Cowden are all testament to how dangerous slammers were in any form of collision. Despite these dangers, and the recommendations of the 'Hidden' report into the accident at Clapham Junction, 'slammers' continued in service for another 15 years beyond the introduction of the first 'Networker'.

More recently of course we saw 4 or 5 car voyagers replacing HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and loco hauled trains on cross country services, with standing becoming the norm on services that previously had seats for all.

Voyagers introduced with a doubling of frequency over the core CrossCountry network. Elsewhere hourly, where previously there was a mish-mash of lesser frequency. More services to the far extremities of the CrossCountry network. Yes, in recent years capacity has become an issue on CrossCountry due to greater than forecast passenger growth. However, I don't think standing is the norm. Happens often on CrossCountry but 'the norm' to me means greater than 50% of the time. Certainly not my experience. In the last 8 years I think I've stood on a CrossCountry service less than a dozen times.

As soon as a few IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) are available I expect that HSTs will suddenly become "non compliant" and have to be scrapped. Other slightly newer stock will no doubt be needed elsewhere.

So no more trains to Devon and Cornwall as soon as the the IEP sets enter squadron service then?

[broadgage]

My cynical prediction is that once IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) enter service, is that HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) will suddenly become life expired and non compliant "much worse condition than expected" and "upgrades to render them compliant much more expensive" and not "not worth it for such a small and now non standard fleet"

Service to the far west would not of course cease, but could be provided by the new 5 car IEPs, perhaps with the odd "double length train" at especially busy times. Or perhaps a connecting service once part of the route is electrified.

[ChrisB]

No one likes changing trains - otherwise frankly, why do HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) go west of St Austell generally now?

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...

[FarWestJohn]

I don't see how IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) are of much long term use on the Plymouth route and into Cornwall. Only a tilting train will increase speeds on this twisting route to Exeter and through Devon.

[ellendune]

No one likes changing trains - otherwise frankly, why do HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) go west of St Austell generally now?

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...

Eventually they might move to the South West services when other lines they are used on are electrified.