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Author Topic: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction  (Read 393878 times)
Rhydgaled
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« Reply #525 on: June 01, 2014, 22:19:57 »

I don't see how IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.) are of much long term use on the Plymouth route and into Cornwall. Only a tilting train will increase speeds on this twisting route to Exeter and through Devon.
If the rumour I've seen on forums that some class 390s would be released for cascade if/when HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is built, then cascaded 390s, aside from their abysmally small windows, would seem to me a sensible eventual replacement for the last of the GWML (Great Western Main Line) IC125 fleet (electrification permitting).

By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs (High Speed Train) with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?
East Coast's IC125 fleet is 2+9... I can think of several possible reasons for the fact FirstGW's fleet is limited to 2+8 most of the time, but have no idea which are true.

The issue is that there aren't any additional carriages available. FGW (First Great Western) have been grabbing as many mothballed carriages as they can get their hands on (mainly old buffets) and converting them into standard class (all the 425xx) carriages. There is no secret store of unused carriages waiting to be used if only the 'penny pinching profiteers' would stump up the cash.
Is it beyond the realms of comprehension that someone could dust off the blue prints for mark 3 coaches and build a few new ones? It would represent a much more sustainable approach to dealing with capacity issues and would provide new rolling stock for the west of England services once the IEP is rolled out elsewhere on the great western network
Apart from the saftey regulations somebody else already mentioned (which I hadn't thought of), the factory that built the mrk3s probably no longer exists (and if it does, it would probably be Derby which I think only builds aluminum-bodied stock now) and nobody is likely to want to build slam-door stock.

However, while there is little in the way of spare stock over here, the power-door mrk3s in Ireland are, I believe, being cut up because nobody wanted to buy them. So there is an element of 'penny pinching' rather than 'provide extra capacity at any cost bar building new trains', but government policy is probably to blame more than the TOCs (Train Operating Company).

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...
...and then some. There's alot of talk about running 10-car trains formed of 2 5-car bi-modes coupled. Personally, I can't see there being enough units to double up many services given that they plan to double the frequency of PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-Bristol and use IEPs on an hourly semi-fast PAD-Westbury service.

Lest we forget, almost every carriage running hereabouts says "First" on it, and of course people who are new to the train service and / or speak little English are going to find it confusing.    If it's just "First" in words, it's OK on your standard ticket. If it's "1st" with numbers too, then you can't use it. Simples.
My emphasis in Bold... Someone tell South West Trains about this please... Roll Eyes
ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) also use the word 'first' rather than (or maybe in addition to) numbers on their two first class carriages (that's two carriages for the entire franchise by the way, not 2 per train as on FirstGW's IC125 services).

I think the units that win the prize however are the GreaterAnglia Class 360 Units. Very little information especially if the compartment door is locked open Undecided Lips sealed EmbarrassedScotRail class 158s don't even have a door seperating first from standard. The seats are just slightly different and there's a short partition wall on each side.

With regards to the mothballed Mk3 Carriages FGW have been trying to source. There is so much Mk2 (Mark 2 coach) lying around the country doing nothing. Yes these carriages are in excess of 40 years old maybe. But we have them. Maybe the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) should be lobbying to make the best of a bad situation?! Just a thought... Smiley
Indeed. Mrk2s wouldn't be any good for the INTERCITY services out of PAD (lower top-speed) but given the lack of DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) and the ammount of crowding across the network the mrk2s should be used somewhere. ATW looked like they were going to do the right thing and actually purchased some mrk2s. However, they seldom used most of the coaches and sold them to a charter operator not long ago (somebody on RailUK Fourm once told me the person responsible for the purchase was sacked by ATW). I believe Direct Rail Services have had some mrk2s refurbished, along with some DBSOs (Driving Brake Standard Open (carriage)) which would allow push-pull operation, for use on the Northern franchise. However, that plan seems to have fallen through too.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
grahame
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« Reply #526 on: June 02, 2014, 09:38:26 »


Is it beyond the realms of comprehension that someone could dust off the blue prints for mark 3 coaches and build a few new ones?

Apart from the saftey regulations somebody else already mentioned (which I hadn't thought of), the factory that built the mrk3s probably no longer exists (and if it does, it would probably be Derby which I think only builds aluminum-bodied stock now) and nobody is likely to want to build slam-door stock.

You also have the issue of some apparently simple components being rather difficult to source ...

http://www.epbpg.co.uk/epbpgpreservation.html

Quote
The original ceiling design can not be replicated, as hardboard is unobtainable in the large size sheets required.

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ChrisB
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« Reply #527 on: June 02, 2014, 10:30:09 »

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...
...and then some. There's alot of talk about running 10-car trains formed of 2 5-car bi-modes coupled. Personally, I can't see there being enough units to double up many services given that they plan to double the frequency of PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-Bristol and use IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.) on an hourly semi-fast PAD-Westbury service.

10car (bi-modes only, don't forget - so on routes for that stock) are likely only in the peaks. Otherwise it's 9car electrics. Off-peak, it'll be 5car bi-modes, I'm sure. But double the frequency, you can halve the length of the train to get the same number of seats....so a 5car as 1 of the extra Bristol's (the one going to W-s-M) should be fine off-peak. And possibly peak too, as there are 3 other trains an hour.

The CIS (Customer Information System) is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....
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grahame
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« Reply #528 on: June 02, 2014, 10:48:54 »

The CIS (Customer Information System) is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #529 on: June 02, 2014, 11:02:13 »

Because you might be blind & can't see that?
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lordgoata
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« Reply #530 on: June 02, 2014, 12:20:22 »

The CIS (Customer Information System) is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?

And why do they tell you where it came from ? How many minutes delayed it is (I'm sure it used to tell you that before they refreshed the CIS?), and the fact the BICYCLES ARE NOT PERMITTED would be far more useful....

Edit: actually now I think of it, it does tell you that doesn't it ? I'm sure they did use to give some other useful bit of information before they changed it to tell you where the train started from after the refresh though, I've just forgotten what it was (so clearly wasn't that useful before someone else says it  Tongue )
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tom m
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« Reply #531 on: June 02, 2014, 12:46:51 »

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...
...and then some. There's alot of talk about running 10-car trains formed of 2 5-car bi-modes coupled. Personally, I can't see there being enough units to double up many services given that they plan to double the frequency of PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-Bristol and use IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.) on an hourly semi-fast PAD-Westbury service.

10car (bi-modes only, don't forget - so on routes for that stock) are likely only in the peaks. Otherwise it's 9car electrics. Off-peak, it'll be 5car bi-modes, I'm sure. But double the frequency, you can halve the length of the train to get the same number of seats....so a 5car as 1 of the extra Bristol's (the one going to W-s-M) should be fine off-peak. And possibly peak too, as there are 3 other trains an hour.

The CIS (Customer Information System) is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

I am sure I remember a lot of discussion about the 10 car being used on the Cotswold route with a split at Oxford? Not sure if the 10 car split will be done on other routes.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #532 on: June 02, 2014, 12:52:48 »

In the (shoulder) peaks maybe....only the Cotswolds trains will be bi-modes, the Oxford fasts will be ekectric 9cars....

(I wish people woukd read the consultation as its very clear in there what stock will be used on which services)
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Southern Stag
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« Reply #533 on: June 02, 2014, 13:08:39 »

The CIS (Customer Information System) is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....
The CIS already tells you how many coaches the train has.

In the (shoulder) peaks maybe....only the Cotswolds trains will be bi-modes, the Oxford fasts will be ekectric 9cars....

(I wish people woukd read the consultation as its very clear in there what stock will be used on which services)
Oxford fasts which don't interwork with Cotswold Line trains are more likely to be EMUs (Electric Multiple Unit) rather than IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.), much like current services are often Turbos. There are no clear indications as to what services will be formed of what stock yet, only broad outlines.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #534 on: June 02, 2014, 13:24:56 »

Not so....check the diagram in the consultaion....
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grahame
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« Reply #535 on: June 02, 2014, 13:30:42 »

The CIS (Customer Information System) is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?

And why do they tell you where it came from ?

Ah ... I concluded that was to help you if you were meeting someone off the train, or joining someone on the train already.    I'm meeting someone on the 08:44 departure from Chippenham tomorrow and it will be re-assuring to be told it's the 07:30 from Paddington 08:30 from Swindon.
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« Reply #536 on: June 02, 2014, 16:29:24 »

Not so....check the diagram in the consultaion....

Page 33's diagram?  Where it shows an IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) operated service between London and Worcester calling Reading, Oxford and then onto the Cotswolds (with some extensions to Malvern and Hereford) and an EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) service every hour between London and Oxford calling at Slough and Reading?

Southern Stag is (as usual) correct, and as you say in a previous post, I do wish people would read the consultation before being so cock-sure about themselves...   Roll Eyes
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bobm
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« Reply #537 on: June 02, 2014, 17:05:22 »

The CIS (Customer Information System) is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?

And why do they tell you where it came from ?

Ah ... I concluded that was to help you if you were meeting someone off the train, or joining someone on the train already.    I'm meeting someone on the 08:44 departure from Chippenham tomorrow and it will be re-assuring to be told it's the 07:30 from Paddington 08:30 from Swindon.

Like all these things - it is all or nothing. The train's origin may be helpful for a train at Reading, Swindon or Chippenham for example - but not so useful when standing at St Erth and waiting for an eastbound train to be told "This is the train from Penzance".
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ChrisB
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« Reply #538 on: June 02, 2014, 17:10:48 »

Or at Reading on westbound platforms as all trains obly emanate from one station :-)

But ^ cost of making different programming for just a couple of statiobs
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JayMac
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« Reply #539 on: June 02, 2014, 17:23:53 »

Except those that start at Reading and head west of course.

And all the CrossCountry services to or from Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham NS, Guildford, Bournemouth, Southampton, Winchester, etc that don't start/terminate at Reading. They all head westbound.  Wink
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