FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[Rhydgaled]

I noted with interest that there is a slide from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in Graham's thread about community rail which states "additional standard class seats on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and first class improvements". How anyone could seriously present the removal of the quiet carriage, less seats and restricted advance tickets represents as an improvement, I do not know!

Isn't the remaining First class supposed to be being refurbished? If so, that would be what was meant by 'improvements'.

I note that Modern Railways has reported that first class to standard class conversions will also happen on Greater Anglia, in that case a reduction of 0.5 carriages by convertion of buffet cars from first to standard (as GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) did to the IC225 sets during the Mallard refurbishment).

[chrisr_75]

I note that Modern Railways has reported that first class to standard class conversions will also happen on Greater Anglia, in that case a reduction of 0.5 carriages by convertion of buffet cars from first to standard (as GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) did to the IC225 sets during the Mallard refurbishment).

Yes, over the course of the next year I believe it is supposed to be refreshed but apart from new seats, tables and soft furnishings, I very much doubt there will be any significant improvements to the offering.

Interesting that another franchise is heading in the same direction. I wonder if the same will happen to the all of the long distance operators in due course?

[IndustryInsider]

I wonder if the same will happen to the all of the long distance operators in due course?

The remaining un-extended Pendolino's on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) with nine carriages, four of which are first class are an obvious candidate.  Coach G could be converted to Standard Class giving an extra 76 seats, an increase from a paltry 294 to 370 Standard Class seats throughout the train, and there would still be 100 First Class seats throughout the remaining three carriages.

[chrisr_75]

Yes, the 9 car pendolinos are a bit ridiculous, but I think that's partly a hangover from BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days - I always remember the Manchester & Liverpool trains were often almost 50/50 first to standard. Indeed back in the day there were two (IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)) Pullman services running around in full first class config...

I've not travelled on the west coast for a couple of years but Virgin did (do?) at least offer a wide range of good value advance fares and an excellent level of service - full meal service, free wifi etc - which is well worth paying a bit extra for, as long as you make use of it of course!

[thetrout]

Ok. I have finally gotten my fins on that document which states the following:

Micro Buffet Sets:

• 43
• TGS - 67 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TSMB - 70 Standard Class Seats
• TC^‡(resolve) - 39 Standard Class Seats - 24 First Class Seats
• TF - 47 First Class Seats
• 43

504 Standard Class Seats
71 First Class Seats

Full Buffet Sets:

• 43
• TGS - 67 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TS - 80 Standard Class Seats (Assume Extra Tables)
• TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
• TFRB - 24 First Class Seats (Assuming a Full Buffet will carry less seats)
• TF - 47 First Class Seats
• 43

475 Standard Class Seats
71 First Class Seats


In addition to the above:

• Power Sockets rotated 45 Degrees to accommodate different size adapters
• 2x USB Power Points at each seat
• Power Sockets at Wheelchair Space and Companion Seat
• Privacy Screens Between the overhead luggage rack and floor covering half a bay of seats
• New Headrest design to provide additional privacy when sat next to another customer which with less seats may become more commonplace
• Voyager Style Push Button Door between First and Standard Class in TC Carriages (Not Floorpads)
• New Carpets and Curtains
• LED Lighting at tables**
• Individual Airline Seats in First Class
• New Tables

** This is personal opinion from what I deduced from a Black and White Mockup Photograph

HST^▸ (High Speed Train) Sets:

• 18 HST Sets will have a TSMB and TC
• 35 HST Sets will have a TFRB

In Standard Class there was mention of 8 Tables in a Standard Class Carriage rather than 4 following customer feedback.

Free WiFi for both First and Standard Class Passengers provided by Nomad Digital.

The Headrest is based on a design from Boeing which changes the customers perception by affecting what is in their peripheral field of vision when seated. This supposively fools the brain into how they feel seated based on what they can see rather than feel.

Finally and this will be seen with much relieve I am sure. The document stated the following: "In the unlikely event of a First Class Seat not being available then the passenger will be entitled to the difference between First and Standard Class Fares"

Can we put that one to bed now please?


My personal views on the above:

USB Power Chargers at seats. Excellent idea and I have thought about suggesting this for a while but can see many reasons why not to do it also. Looks like FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have gone one step further than thinking it so this has my complete support. Downside is it doesn't take much to break a USB Port. So I can see these getting damaged fairly easily. The more you put a device in and out over time the port degrades so with frequent use these will break or just not work. The worry also is if the USB surges it can blow the device you're trying to charge. You DO NOT want to holding your phone if the battery explodes (Ok that is EXTREMELY rare but can happen)

Now the headrest is going to be my biggest bugbear I can see for several reasons.

My biggest bugbear will be perceived claustrophobia. Especially in the Window Seat. I can get away with sitting in the window with Ladyfriend Trout... That may not be the case anymore

It is going to make it a potential sod if you want to talk to the person sat next to you!

Privacy screen, Window and Headrest with ears. Seems quite cosy to me... Then your phone rings? I guess you might forget everyone else inside the carriage... Wonder how long before there is an argument between 'the suits'

Also, Most passengers don't sit back in the seats but lean forward on the table. Rendering the headrest almost pointless.

Lets go dark now (and I know for a fact I won't be the only one)... If I know I am on my own or there is no-one immediately around... I will talk to 'the voices' as it's just easier than trying to fight/ignore them... This headrest could potentially be my arch nemesis!

I know for a fact that of 2 passengers I see occasionally in First are Psychotic. Trade secret? They're the nice folk who keep a mobile phone conversation going in box tunnel

Now you'll note in all the above in my personal view I have used my most hated words "Could" and "May" ... I haven't seen the real thing yet so I can only judge fully when I've travelled. Rest assured I will no doubt write a review on the new seating when I get an opportunity to travel.

[Rhydgaled]

Have FirstGW lost an IC125 set permenantly, or is my rolling stock spreadsheet wrong? I have it as 19 micro-buffet sets in the fleet, plus 35 with full buffets making 54 sets.  thetrout's post above suggests one less micro-buffet set.

Also, my spreadsheet has the current capacity of the full-buffet at 17 seats. Have they really managed to squeese another 7 first class seats into the buffet cars? And one more thing, I have the current Coach C down as a TS(D) with only 70 seats (and, presumably, a disabled-access toilet), thetrout's information suggests the disabled-access toilet has gone missing (assuming there is one currently of course) or they're going to have a 'short persons carriage' with even less legroom to allow all the TS vehicles to have 80-82 seats.

[Brucey]

I have split off a number of posts regarding plugs, USB cables and fuses into a new topic.

This leaves thetrout's post fitting into both.  As it can only exist in one place, I have posted a quote of it below:

Have FirstGW lost an IC125 set permenantly, or is my rolling stock spreadsheet wrong? I have it as 19 micro-buffet sets in the fleet, plus 35 with full buffets making 54 sets.  thetrout's post above suggests one less micro-buffet set.

The document may have had a typo. Or I made a typo when taking notes (Which I suck at anyway so is probable). It was an internal FGW^▸ (First Great Western) document and FGW's proofreading skills have in the past left alot to be desired...

Also, my spreadsheet has the current capacity of the full-buffet at 17 seats. Have they really managed to squeese another 7 first class seats into the buffet cars? And one more thing, I have the current Coach C down as a TS(D) with only 70 seats (and, presumably, a disabled-access toilet), thetrout's information suggests the disabled-access toilet has gone missing (assuming there is one currently of course) or they're going to have a 'short persons carriage' with even less legroom to allow all the TS vehicles to have 80-82 seats.

I flagged this up when looking at the document myself! Both of these things infact!

The Disabled Access Carriage (TSD) I spotted immediately as I knew it didn't have 82 seats. It was suggested that FGW are including the Flip Down Seats opposite the disabled toilet and elsewhere in that area in the whole number. I was not inclined to agree and think this is an inadvertent oversight.

Unless FGW plan to remove the disabled toilet from Coach C... Can't see that being popular amongst Disability Rights Campaigners at all... So I am not even going to suggest FGW might even consider such a thing!

I also doubt that 24 seats will be fitted into a full kitchen which leaves 1 of 2 possibilities.

FGW are reducing the kitchen sizes in the Buffet (Seriously unlikely in my opinion considering the hard marketing of the Pullman and slowly improving of the Travelling Chef services)

So I think it's another oversight as someone hasn't taken into account some Buffet Cars only have 17 seats.

Rhydgaled, do you know how many full size Buffets FGW have in their fleet? I think I will edit my original post as a speculation that FGW have got that slightly wrong.

[TaplowGreen]

Apologies if this has been noted before but I saw it confirmed by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) on their Twitter page that there will no longer be a 1st class Quiet carriage.

[NickB]

Apologies if this has been noted before but I saw it confirmed by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) on their Twitter page that there will no longer be a 1st class Quiet carriage.

Did they explain why?  Other than that they are deliberately obstinate and despise their customers?

[chrisr_75]

Apologies if this has been noted before but I saw it confirmed by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) on their Twitter page that there will no longer be a 1st class Quiet carriage.

Did they explain why?  Other than that they are deliberately obstinate and despise their customers?

I seem to recall from way back in the thread that the justification was something to do with the design of the new seats, as if that influences people's behaviour!

I for one have given up on using the train for the time being partly as a result of this meddling with first class and the changing availability of advance fares in both classes which has driven the cost of a rail commute to uneconomic levels when compared to driving...

[JayMac]

I trust the 1st Class provision when driving is much better then. 

And the decision to return to using the car was based on the availability of Advance Purchase fares on a commuter flow? Is/was a Season Ticket not an option?

[chrisr_75]

I trust the 1st Class provision when driving is much better then. 

And the decision to return to using the car was based on the availability of Advance Purchase fares on a commuter flow? Is/was a Season Ticket not an option?

Yes, it is much better so far! Nice comfy seat and 5 all to myself even though I can only really use one, just like in first class! 

As long as the M4 is incident free it is a full hour quicker as I don't have to double back on myself for an hour on the Underground and offers me a lot more flexibility in terms of when I can travel. I will probably continue to use the trains once or twice a month perhaps for a bit of variety and a break from driving, but it is a happy feeling not to be so reliant on the rail system!

No, I'm a weekly long distance commuter so a season ticket isn't an option for me. One can be bought but BGN-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) annually is ^12084 in STD or ^24772 for first, so that's certainly not a cost effective option for a weekly commute and it's just a bit too long to do daily which is the only way to make a season ticket work...

[TaplowGreen]

It's clear that the whole issue of creating more Standard class space by taking the easy option of "recycling" First class accomodation, whilst on the face of it a logical solution, was not subject to a full impact assessment in the context of First class passengers who are now missing out.

I think it's called the law of unintended consequences but most of the problems that have been created were foreseeable.

Whilst there may now be more standard class seats, there is little doubt that high revenue generating First class passengers are being alienated and turning to their cars instead as the quality of the Premium service has been reduced.

The baby would appear to have been chucked out with the bathwater.

[ChrisB]

Evidence from just a couple isn't a very good guide!

[IndustryInsider]

I agree with ChrisB - a couple of moans on here and elsewhere before the conversion work has barely started, is really not a true indication of how outraged the typical First Class passenger is, and how many (in percentage terms) will suddenly be getting their car out of the driveway all the time instead.

However, I will say that I'm a little surprised that a quiet zone, even if just half a carriage worth, won't be reinstated on carriages after the conversion work has been completed.