The fate of LM 150s

[whole diary]

[The SprinterMeister]

SO now FGw are to gain a lot more 172s.... and then lose pacers and possibly 150s??

Seems to make sence to get them into one frachise.  Just a shame that the wales franchise ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) cant get all the 150s, which are technicallymore suited to their valley lines service, and in turn replace all of their 142s.  This would then allow the oppertunity to replace every single pacer with Northern with a brand new style unit before regulations about access etc change. 

I would have thought now that there are revenue barriers in place at Cardiff Central & Queen St the Pacers were the ideal jobbie for the Cardiff Valley Lines. Max journey about 15 miles at around 45mph or less. Bit of a waste putting bogied stock on those runs IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), particularly as Pacers have better acceleration than a 150 at sub 50mph speeds.  Whoever sanctioned the loss in December 2007 of 8 perfectly serviceable Wessex 150/2 to ATW wants putting against a wall and shooting. Had those sets remained at FGW^▸ (First Great Western), none of the Pacer diversification would have been neccessary. If you had to send stock to ATW, the 8 x 143/6 should have been sent, thus concentrating the entire class on one depot.

[Mookiemoo]

i used to live in marple, trust me i know what it can be like up there! but the reason i said ''semi decent'' is that although getting a seat is difficult the frequency of the trains is amazing... for example marple to manchester is now every 20 mins at peak times plus the hourly service from rose hill marple, manchester to stockport atleast every ten mins, coupled with the fact that there are so many stations your never far from one,im not saying its perfect up there but lets face it compaired to the southwest they get a decent service

I agree on some services the frequency is very good, there's also the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds section of the North Transpennine services. 

Stockport's frequency is very high as it was thought there were regulations saying passenger trains could not go through Stockport and had to stop.  However, Arriva asked for proof which couldn't be provided and their Manchester-Bristol services now go through Stockport.

However, you should note that there is now only an hourly peak stopping service to Crewe from Manchester and only an hourly train in the peaks to Chester via Altrincham (both used to be 3 per hour in the peaks at privitasation.)  These weren't cut back because of poor passenger numbers but because Virgin Trains requested extra paths through Stockport.

Arrivas Manchester South Wales I think you mean. And whilst there is only an hourly service to crewe - stockport is not that far from man pic - I suspect its the slough of the north wet

[r james]

What ghas the revenue barriers between Cardiff stations got to do with the suitability of a pacer to the route?  I would have thought this made no difference, as the trains are still busy.

And for those who complain about the pacers going to ATw..... you try some of the journeys ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) use 150s on, in a pacer, and maybe youll think differently. 

[The SprinterMeister]

What ghas the revenue barriers between Cardiff stations got to do with the suitability of a pacer to the route?  I would have thought this made no difference, as the trains are still busy.

Easy. If you have 14x running in Multi, there is no through gangway access which makes on board revenue protection more difficult. If you have revenue barriers in place you recover the lost revenue due to the grip not being able to get through the train to collect / issue tickets.

And for those who complain about the pacers going to ATw..... you try some of the journeys ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) use 150s on, in a pacer, and maybe youll think differently. 

Taunton to Cardiff on a 143 is not exactly a wonderful experience either. Which is why the 14x are far more suited to short runs on the Valley Lines / Grumbly Gasworks network.

[Not from Brighton]

Well it sounds like the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s will be usefully employed somewhere, which is good.
I am concerned that post-privatisation railway companies and passengers alike have been overly interested in rolling stock replacement.  One thing I often notice when traveling on the continent is the age of some of the rolling stock, they seem to be able to keep old vehicles running in a good condition for a while longer then we do. I wonder if money spent on new carpets and paint jobs could have been better spent getting me to work on time.

[Mookiemoo]

What ghas the revenue barriers between Cardiff stations got to do with the suitability of a pacer to the route?  I would have thought this made no difference, as the trains are still busy.

Easy. If you have 14x running in Multi, there is no through gangway access which makes on board revenue protection more difficult. If you have revenue barriers in place you recover the lost revenue due to the grip not being able to get through the train to collect / issue tickets.

And for those who complain about the pacers going to ATw..... you try some of the journeys ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) use 150s on, in a pacer, and maybe youll think differently. 

Taunton to Cardiff on a 143 is not exactly a wonderful experience either. Which is why the 14x are far more suited to short runs on the Valley Lines / Grumbly Gasworks network.

Only if EVERY station is barriered

Nothing stopping someone getting on at cardiff, buying the cheapest ticket possible knowing they are getting off at an unbarriered station

either EVERY station has to have a barrier or none because the alternative is false sense of security where those people who can add 2 + 2 can play the system

[willc]

Um, it does seem that the West seem to lose out when it comes to unit swapping time, and Northern always seems to win.

But not any more - the whole point of this discussion is that originally both FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and Northern were down for some 172s and some LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s.  But recent announcements, and Roger Ford's revelation of the details in the ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender), show that it is now FGW down for mostly new DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) (possibly more 172s), and Northern are assumed to be getting ex LM 150s only.

Paul

Sorry, but some of them are meant to go to Northern, not many, but some of them, because they and TPX need extra stock just as badly as FGW.

The following line was in the DafT press release in March announcing they were setting up their own leasing company to buy the trains

"The trains are set to enter service by 2012 subject to negotiations with train operators First Great Western, Trans-Pennine Express and Northern Rail."

[northwesterntrains]

Arrivas Manchester South Wales I think you mean. And whilst there is only an hourly service to crewe - stockport is not that far from man pic - I suspect its the slough of the north wet

I wasn't clear with this.  When I said hourly service I meant hourly all stations Northern service.  Crewe does have more than one train an hour to Manchester, but Sandbach, Goostrey, Chelford, Alderley Edge, Handforth (on the Crewe to Manchester line) are only served by Northern services.

Stockport does look like it's just south of Manchester on a map but if you're on a local train doing Stockport to Manchester it can take an eternity as priority is given to Virgin Trains services, then CrossCountry, then Transpennine Express ,then Arriva Trains Wales, then Northern.

[northwesterntrains]

Well it sounds like the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s will be usefully employed somewhere, which is good.
I am concerned that post-privatisation railway companies and passengers alike have been overly interested in rolling stock replacement. 

North Western Trains did a good job of refurbishing 150s but unfortuantely they tried to squeeze too many seats in to too small an area.  If they'd made them all 3 car with 2+2 seating and a bit extra leg room (which wouldn't have been possible due to the number of carriages they had) then it would have been better.

Merseyrail's 507/508s from the 1970s are also refurbished to a high standard internally.  So much so that you'd think you're on a newish train if you didn't know better and only realise that you're on an old train when it starts moving, but they still run much better than Pacers.

[paul7575]

Thanks for clarifying that, but it was still very much an oversimplification for the earlier poster to suggest that Northern always gets much better treatment than FGW^▸ (First Great Western) when it comes to new units. The supposed 44 vehicles for Portsmouth Cardiff have altered the original divi up significantly...

Paul

[Btline]

The LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), Chiltern and Overground orders, which are all in hand at Bombardier in Derby, are nothing to do with the further batch that is still stuck in DafT, which would involve extra stock for FGW^▸ (First Great Western), Northern and TransPennine. And yes, if they ever get ordered, then almost all the LM 150s will go to Northern.

But don't get any ideas that the LM 172s will be fitted out like Chiltern Clubmans. They will be pack-em-in suburban style, like the 150s they will replace.

Wrong - each 172 carriage will contain about 10 fewer seats than a 150 coach, so they are not "packing them in". Seating will be 2+2, presumably in the same layout as LM 170s. The fact that the coaches will each be about 10 feet longer will be offset by the addition of a disabled toilet, and wheelchair area.

Unfortunately, this will mean more commuters will have to stand - but not for Mookie, as there are always seats at Kidderminster in the morning rush hour.

[DanielP]

Just a comment regarding ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)))'s valley routes. Most are actually very long, especially as trains are rostered very efficiently, with routes being combined and units being kept on long W pattern type diagrams. For instance, a train might start at Cardiff, then go to Bridgend (1hr), straight back to Cardiff (1hr), then on through Cardiff to Abedare (1hr), then STRAIGHT back to Cardiff (1hr), then onto Barry (half hour), straight back to Cardiff, up to Merthyr (1hr), straight back to Cardiff, onto Bridgend and then straight back to Cardiff. That's why they have been forced to improve reliability.

And this is why we might see some of the stock allocation change- for instance, the 142s are much more reliable than the 143s and Sprinters. Even though they are old, ATW might want to keep hold of them, as they are dependable. Similarly, Northern run 321 based electrics, which I think are the most reliable type of AC unit in the country. Why have new units (with running in glitches and system wide teething troubles), when you can get your hands on LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise)'s super reliable 321s......

New isn't necesarily better.

Daniel

[willc]

But they won't be getting their hands on the maintenance team from Northampton (previously Bletchley). Modern Railways does an annual survey of rolling stock performance and the variations in miles per casualty between depots for the same types of trains are often quite striking.

And under the latest plan, what Northern looks likely to get are 323s from Birmingham to add to their exisitng sets based in Manchester, not 321s, of which they currently operate a grand total of three, based on the other side of the Pennines for Leeds-Doncaster stoppers.

The LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), Chiltern and Overground orders, which are all in hand at Bombardier in Derby, are nothing to do with the further batch that is still stuck in DafT, which would involve extra stock for FGW^▸ (First Great Western), Northern and TransPennine. And yes, if they ever get ordered, then almost all the LM 150s will go to Northern.

But don't get any ideas that the LM 172s will be fitted out like Chiltern Clubmans. They will be pack-em-in suburban style, like the 150s they will replace.

Wrong - each 172 carriage will contain about 10 fewer seats than a 150 coach, so they are not "packing them in". Seating will be 2+2, presumably in the same layout as LM 170s. The fact that the coaches will each be about 10 feet longer will be offset by the addition of a disabled toilet, and wheelchair area.

Unfortunately, this will mean more commuters will have to stand - but not for Mookie, as there are always seats at Kidderminster in the morning rush hour.

I was referring to Mookie's request for a table, and they will not have tables - just rows of airline seats, even with a 2+2 layout, and won't look like a Clubman interior. And given how busy some Birmingham commuter trains are, the wider aisles make a lot of sense.

[Btline]

They might have a few tables dotted here and there (to reverse the direction of seating in the middle of each coach).

But yes, hopefully, the wider doors and aisles will allow more standing (although I would prefer if LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) cut the order of 2 car trains and put in the same number of 3 car trains, so peak trains can be 6 car instead of 5).