Split tickets and season tickets......

[whole diary]

[Mookiemoo]

I think I may have been being diddled for a while!  Noticed this on an old thread......

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover
the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to
another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season
Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.


Now if I have a season that covers me to say slough on the cotswolds line..... surely we have the following scenario.......

1. Paddington to worcester - train does not sop at slough.  I have a season ticket.  surely I have to only pay the Paddington to slough portion and not the paddington to Reading - there is a significant difference!

2. Reading to Newport on a train that does not stop at didcot but where didcot is covered by my season - surely again I only have to pay didcot to newport and not the reading to newport I often get charged. 

Or am I reading it totally wrong - which is possible

[readytostart]

I'm a train guard and that is my understanding of it, ask your local station to unearth, and dust off a 'freely available' copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage for you, also available on the National Rail website at:  http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Please note this rule specifically excludes using a combination of two season tickets, unless the train calls at the station where one ticket stops and the other starts.

[Mookiemoo]

I'm a train guard and that is my understanding of it, ask your local station to unearth, and dust off a 'freely available' copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage for you, also available on the National Rail website at:  http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Please note this rule specifically excludes using a combination of two season tickets, unless the train calls at the station where one ticket stops and the other starts.

No - i've got that part - and my season split is at oxford so both of these situations occur on my single oxford to slough season!

Its just depending on train times it sometimes behoves me to divert slightly - either into London if the other choice is ages loitering at Reading (but it doesnt happen often enough to justify a oxford - paddington) or as in the other night when I had to get to Ludlow and waiting for the next hereford train meant getting home over 90 minutes later than if I went via Newport.

Its specifically combining the season with a walk on ticket.  I had always assume the train had to call at the split here as well so always asked for padddington-reading or reading-newport whilst explaining about my season.

I guess its the reverse of what happens with my YP card and first class - the TM^‡(resolve)'s sell what they are asked for!

[grahame]

I've 'always' understood that the split rule is "must stop at OR must be a season ticket linking to an individual ticket".   So you are / should be fine with both your Slough and Didcot cases.   You might find a 'jobsworth' questioning Didcot but it doesn't say where one ticket ends - it says where you change over.

My understanding is that this is a long established nice gesture to season ticket holder who (say) commute from London to Henley, but want to go straight from work on a Friday evening to join their family holiday hiking near Trowbridge    ((I offer that as an explanation of the logic for the rule)).

With regard to being sold the best priced ticket for your journey, I have some sympathy with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff who may not know exactly what tickets you hold - it would probably be a major inquisition to check with everybody to ensure that all possible options had been considered.  But that does mean that we can't assume that the first fare offered will be the best for us - it can pay to 'barter' and ask 'what about ....'. 

[Mookiemoo]

I've 'always' understood that the split rule is "must stop at OR must be a season ticket linking to an individual ticket".   So you are / should be fine with both your Slough and Didcot cases.   You might find a 'jobsworth' questioning Didcot but it doesn't say where one ticket ends - it says where you change over.

My understanding is that this is a long established nice gesture to season ticket holder who (say) commute from London to Henley, but want to go straight from work on a Friday evening to join their family holiday hiking near Trowbridge    ((I offer that as an explanation of the logic for the rule)).

With regard to being sold the best priced ticket for your journey, I have some sympathy with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff who may not know exactly what tickets you hold - it would probably be a major inquisition to check with everybody to ensure that all possible options had been considered.  But that does mean that we can't assume that the first fare offered will be the best for us - it can pay to 'barter' and ask 'what about ....'. 

To be fare i'm not complaiing - i always specified which ticket I wanted thinking it was easier on a busy train - I just wasnt aware that the train did not have to stop at the station when extending a season!

My fauult for not learning the rules!  Although, on two occassions I have done what I was thought trying it on.  both in the last week!

Monday - Reading to Newport - didnt realise train didnt stop at didcot until after it left - when I found the guard at Swindon I explained my season and even mentioned that it covered me to Didcot but made the comment I guess since the train didnt stop there I have to pay from Reading.

Last week - Paddington to Reading - similar situation - made the comment I guess i'll have to pay to Reading not just slough as the 1822 doesnt stop there.    I was surprised by this one as the TM^‡(resolve) in question was one I thought would wave it and only charge me until Slough anyway!

i guess the ones who only charged me to slough we'rent doing me the favour I thought they were!

I know for future reference

[super tm]

The problem that the condition only applies if you buy the extension BEFORE you get on the train.

If you dont then you are treated as having boarded the train with out a valid ticket.  So for example you got on at Reading with a season ticket to Slough intending to travel to London.  You will be charge from Reading to London full price single. If the train stops at slough then you will only be charged from Slough to London.

Hope that makes sense.

[Mookiemoo]

just like YP discounts aren't on first class or available on the train!

[Btline]

YP is available on Advance First fares.

[Mookiemoo]

YP is available on Advance First fares.

Not on walk up!

see the recent arguments

[devon_metro]

YP is available on Advance First fares.

Not on walk up!

see the recent arguments

I think btline realises that, so his comment still stands.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Yes, thanks, devon_metro. 

Advance, yes: walk up, no.  Please, let's not go there again! 

[Mookiemoo]

Yes, thanks, devon_metro. 

Advance, yes: walk up, no.  Please, let's not go there again! 

And I m not - what I AM referring to as what you can and cannot get on the train it up to the TM^‡(resolve) and 95% of the ones I know will issue whatever if they can

One admitted it tonight - as long as you ask him and dont hide - he'll issue whatever he is allowed to on his machine!

So the person pointing out the excess is only valid if you do it before is talking bollocks in reality!  Just like if I get a jobsworth I dont argue a la Monday where the TM on the newport to hereford train would not give me a YP discount hereford to ludlow cos I couldnt be arsed to walk over the bridge to the ticket office when I had a valid ticket from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to get into newport from slough!  He was within his rights - doesnt mean I agree with the principle!   

BTW^▸ (by the way) - the TM tonight was aware of the season ticket excess non stop rule!

[grahame]

And I m not - what I AM referring to as what you can and cannot get on the train it up to the TM^‡(resolve) and 95% of the ones I know will issue whatever if they can

One admitted it tonight - as long as you ask him and dont hide - he'll issue whatever he is allowed to on his machine!

So the person pointing out the excess is only valid if you do it before is talking bollocks in reality!  ...

The National Conditions quoted at the top of this thread say nothing about it being necessary to purchase the extension prior to boarding the train, so they do NOT suggest a problem provided you find the train manager prior to that point. 

However, I have been contacted by one of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ticket staff who suggests that according to the rules you DO need to book your extension before you join the train, and imlying that it's at the discression of the chap / chapess on the train is you ask for an extension after joining.

A request to one of the experts on the rules - can you confirm if Mookiemoo does have to purchase an extension before she joins the train, or can get her extension from the 'conductor' before she goes off her original ticket's validity. If the answer is "before she joins the train", the please point us to the rule / place this is officially stated, as the national conditions quoted above don't even hint at it, and so would appear to be incomplete / misleading at best.

[Tim]

A request to one of the experts on the rules - can you confirm if Mookiemoo does have to purchase an extension before she joins the train, or can get her extension from the 'conductor' before she goes off her original ticket's validity. If the answer is "before she joins the train", the please point us to the rule / place this is officially stated, as the national conditions quoted above don't even hint at it, and so would appear to be incomplete / misleading at best.

I woulnd't count myself as an expert on the rules, but don't the national conditions require that you buy not just a ticket but a a ticket for your journey before boarding.  You could interpret this to mean that you need a ticket for your entire intended journey before you board.  Afterall, if you are travelling on a combination of two "ordinary"tickets (on a servcie that stops at the changeover station obviously) then you need to buy both tickets before you board, at least that has always been my assumption.

[grahame]

I woulnd't count myself as an expert on the rules, but don't the national conditions require that you buy not just a ticket but a a ticket for your journey before boarding.  You could interpret this to mean that you need a ticket for your entire intended journey before you board.  ...

Good point - National Condition of Carriage No. 2:

Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

So if I intend to travel from London to Newport, using my London to Oxford seascon as far as Didcot, I must purchase the Didcot to Newport leg before I leave London to be within the rules.

There are some odd-looking side effects  (new example)...

If I get on the Bristol train intending to change at Didcot to go to Oxford, but get a call from my partner telling me that she's been held up and can't be in Oxford that evening - come home to Melksham, it is legitimate for me to buy the Didcot to Chippenham section on the train, since I started with a ticket for my intended journey. However, if I receive her phone call BEFORE I board the train, I need to purchase the upgrade before I join the train and (since it says "the journey" in the conditions), I technically need my Chippenham to Melksham bus ticket too ((in a realistic scenario, I wouldn't have been lucky enough to be leaving London on the single daily train that actually has an onward conenction to Melksham!))